One of the greatest beauties of a book, in my opinion, is that there's no passport needed to take you places you want to go or never even knew existed.

Hi, I'm Holly Jackson, the host of Books by the River, and I'm here to navigate the conversation of those who draw the maps for some of the most interesting journeys bound in a book.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Major funding for Books by the River is brought to you by the ETV Endowment of South Carolina.

For more than 40 years, the ETV Endowment of South Carolina has been a partner of South Carolina ETV, and South Carolina Public Radio.

This program is supported by South Carolina Humanities, a not for profit organization inspiring, engaging, and enriching South Carolinians with programs on literature, history, culture, and heritage.

SC Humanities receives funding from the National Endowment for the Humanities.

Democracy demands wisdom.

Additional funding for Books by the River is provided by Visit Beaufort, Port Royal and Sea Islands and Osher Lifelong Learning Institute at USC Beaufort.

Holly> Today we're speaking with Leonard Pitts Jr, author of 54 Miles.

Thanks so much for joining us.

Leonard> Oh, it's my pleasure.

Holly> Excited about this conversation.

First of all, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and your career and what brought you to becoming an author?

Leonard> Well, I get the question about becoming an author often, and I tell people that I never became an author.

I always was, and it was a matter of realizing that at a very early age, when I was five, I knew that I was put here to write.

And, you know, I never realized how I don't know, unlikely, that is, until I became older and got had five year olds of my own and realized that that that's very young to know what you're- you know, what you're what you're put here for.

But I was blessed at five to know that, you know, this is what I wanted to do for the rest of my life.

Holly> When you say five, tell me about that moment.

You must you must remember.

Leonard> I don't know that there was a moment.

I just remember writing stories.

They were all about a little boy who was secretly a superhero.

You know?

<laughs> Go figure.

And, I remember in second grade, I forget teacher's name, but, you know, we had a deal that if the class behaved themselves, then Leonard would read one of his stories at the end of that, the end of of class.

And it wasn't a punishment.

It was like, you know, considered, “Wow, this is going to be a good thing.” So that's pretty amazing.

And just all through school that's what I did.

When I was in the sixth grade, I guess it was the I had a deal with the principal that I could go in after school and use, and this will date my- this will date me, but use the IBM Selectric typewriters.

Holly> Yes.

Leonard> You know, to type my stories.

That was top technology, you know, in 1969 or whatever it was.

But use the, the typewriters to, to type up my story isn't the mimeograph machine to, to, to make copies.

So, yeah, this has always been a part of my, my DNA.

Holly> So this was the track from high school.

You knew this is where you were going to land?

Leonard> Oh, by the time I was 12, I was sending stories to magazines and newspapers.

As a matter of fact, maybe even a little younger than that.

I got published for the first time when I was 12, and then I got published and paid for the first time when I was 18.

Holly> That's really incredible.

Leonard> This was, you know, through high school, through college, through everything.

Holly> Let's talk about whenever you became, you were writing music reviews?

Leonard> Right.

Holly> All right.

Was that something you wanted to do, or was that a foot in the door to take you where you wanted to go?

Leonard> A little bit of both.

I mean, I loved music, and I couldn't believe that the here's here's this job where they pay you to - they pay you to, to to listen to the to new songs or new albums and tell and describe what you think about them.

You know, they pay you to go and hang out with Gladys Knight and the Pips or the Temptations or the O'Jays or Diana Ross or Marvin Gaye or whomever, you know, Michael Jackson, they're going to pay me to do this.

<laughs> I thought.

I thought I'd lucked into the greatest scam in the world.

It's like <laughs> Holly> Sure.

<laughs> Leonard> <laughs> Is this legal?

<laughs> Does anybody else know about this?

You know, and I'm like 18, 19, years old, and that's my life.

So it was it was it was foot in the door.

But it was also not, you know, not my ultimate goal.

My ultimate goal was to do what I'm doing now is to write novels.

My feeling was that I'd spent two years writing music reviews and then sent off a novel, to, to a publisher, and, you know, it would the book.

They would read it and it would make them laugh.

It would make them cry.

It would make them send me $1 million check.

<laughs> So, you know, that none of that ever - None of that quite happened.

So I spent a lot of years doing music reviews, but writing novels was always, you know, goal number one.

Holly> Okay, so you you did the music reviews that lasted how many years?

Leonard> 18 years.

Holly> 18.

Okay.

And then you shifted to a different type of column.

Leonard> I started doing a column of just general, general interest social and political issues.

I had done again, music for 18 years, which they say the average lifespan of a of a performing act or a musical act is five years.

So I had done almost four lifetimes by then, and I was really beginning to feel it.

I did not have any love for as he was billed back then, Snoop Doggy Dogg, oh no, love.

No.

Holly> Oh, come on, no love for Snoop?

Leonard> No, this is back in the early 90's and I had no love for Snoop Doggy Dogg, Milli Vanilli, New Kids on the Block.

Any of the folks who were like, you know, the big, the big names back then when it was time - Holly> You just couldn't do it, so you knew it was time.

Leonard> I needed to do something else.

Holly> So you transitioned into your own column?

Tell me about the type of writing you did with that.

Leonard> Well, I didn't want to do the political “horse race” columns, I mean, other people have more interest in that and do it a lot.

Or, would have done it a lot better than I did.

I like to talk about, the one of the taglines that they came up with in selling the column, which I really liked, was you write about the politics of the human condition, and that sounds kind of lofty or whatever, but I really liked that because I, you know, I want to write about, social issues.

I wanted to write about, race and gender and, sexuality, you know, LGBTQ stuff.

And, and just general, you know, moral concerns.

Holly> So tell me what years you began writing about those - Leonard> I began the column in 1994, when I was for a while, I did it simultaneous with doing the music criticism.

I left music criticism about a year later, and I did the column from ‘94 to 2022.

Holly> Okay, so these were tough topics.

And still are, but probably even more so then, tell me about the feedback you got from readers.

Especially the criticism and how you think that shaped you as an author, if at all, in terms of writing books?

Leonard> I don't know that it had a lot to do with, with, writing books that like, it's almost like two separate universes.

You get a lot of feedback.

For me, most of it was was was fairly positive.

It depends on the column.

You know, sometimes it's 70/30, 60/40, sometimes it's 50/50, and sometimes you just go out there and nobody likes you.

<laughs> I mean, that's part of the job.

If you do that, if you do that job and you're overly concerned about, you know, people always loving you, then you're not going to be able to do the job.

If you're worried about, you know, what people are going to think, then you're not you're not going to be.

You're not doing the job the way that the job needs to be done.

So, you know, if if it did anything, it sort of, I guess I want to say hardened me, but it taught me to trust my own instincts, in terms of what I think and how I want to, how I want to, pursue things and, and just to, you know, to trust my gut and follow that and see where it goes.

And my feeling has always been, I'd rather succeed, you know, I'd rather fail being who I am <laughs> than succeed trying to be a copy of of you or or somebody else, you know that that didn't make any sense, you know.

So if I'm going to, if I'm going to fail, I'm going to fail being who I am, being true to what I think and believe and to the, you know, the values that I try to, you know, to embody.

Holly> That's very good.

Let's dive into the book now.

Tell us about 54 miles.

What that - the significance of that number and why you chose to write this book.

Leonard> 54 miles is the distance from Selma Montgomery to - Selma Montgomery, Selma, Alabama.

Excuse me, to Montgomery, Alabama.

So it is the distance that the, voting rights marchers marched in, in March of 1965, in trying to, to, to, you know, secure the right to, to, to to the ballot for African-Americans.

Obviously, they've been denied for, for decades by that point.

And, Dr. King and the civil rights movement came to Selma to, to to, you know, to to press that issue, which of course, led to they actually tried to cross the bridge three times.

The first time was, the one that led to the disastrous Bloody Sunday, where they crossed and they were beaten by Alabama state troopers and posse men and, and, and police and, and, you know, just just brutalized on the bridge.

There was a second march, I think, did a couple of days later where they turned around, in the face of the, the, police.

Then there was a third march which went the entire 54 miles all the way to Montgomery.

And as for why I wrote the book, this book comes on the heels of my last novel, which was, The Last Thing You Surrender, and I left a huge plot point dangling in that novel.

There's a there's this guy, Floyd Bitters, who has, who has, brutally led a lynch mob that brutally murdered, dismembered, burned alive, etc., etc.

the parents of two of my heroes, Thelma and, her brother Luther, and, within the context of that last book, I couldn't resolve the issue of Floyd Bitters.

It just the timeline didn't allow for it.

And and so Floyd Bitters basically just, you know, got away and there was no resolution.

So one of the main reasons I wrote this book was to deal with Floyd Bitters.

And, you know what what what happens when, when Luther discovers him, helpless in a, in a nursing home 43 years later, the guy had never these.

He stood trial.

He went free.

Even though there was obvious evidence.

It was obvious that they had done the crime.

But he never he never saw accountability.

He never saw justice.

So, you know, what does Luther do?

When he encounters him in the, in the nursing home.

And then the second major plotline of the book is Thelma, who's Luther's sister, had been hiding a very terrible secret from her son Adam, who is now 20, going on 21.

And, the secret comes out and, it, draws her back to Alabama, where she hasn't been in 20 years because she, you know, was brutalized there.

And, and it almost, it almost kills her.

It almost kills her son.

And it, you know, just really it really wrecks their family.

I'll put it like that.

Holly> So the last book, whenever you left it there, knowing you couldn't resolve it, was it that moment where you said, “Okay, I'll finish this in another book.” Or was it later?

It kind of like, tugged on your heart and you said, I just got to do it.

Leonard> It kind of bothered- Not all at once, but it kind of gnawed at me.

That book came out in 2019.

So it kind of gnawed at me for a long time.

This guy, you know, we never find out, you know, this guy needs we need to do something.

We need to figure out some sort of resolution for this guy.

What?

What happens to this guy?

And so you know it again, it wasn't right at that moment, but I think it was always in the back of my mind.

And as the years went, went forward, it just sort of, you know, gnawed at me more and more until I had to do something about it.

Holly> So you write this book and then when you complete it, was there a moment in that one you said, “Okay, now I know what the next one is going to be.” Leonard> <laughs> Holly> Does it ever end or it just keeps going?

Leonard> No, I don't think I'm going to return to these characters.

This is my first.

My publishers don't like me to use the word “sequel” because it suggests that you've got to read the first one before you read the second one.

And they were actually self-contained.

But this is this is the first time I've, I've revisited the characters from a previous book, because usually I finish a book and I'm on to the next thing.

So this is the first time that the characters from a previous book have appeared in a whole new story, and I can't see doing it, you know, a third time.

I mean, I'm not Robert B Parker and this isn't Spenser, so, <laughs> I'm not, you know, I can't see doing that.

I don't see any, any overriding reason to to to go back to them.

Holly> Let's talk more about your writing career, where you were writing columns.

We're talking what, 300 words or something like that?

Leonard> 600 words.

About 615 words.

Holly> 615 words.

So it's obviously a different format.

We're still writing, but it's a different format.

Talk about how your approach changes, how your writing process changes between the two different formats.

Leonard> Well, process doesn't change so much.

I'm a writer who believes in editing as you write.

So I'm always polishing as I'm writing, and then when I'm finished, when I finish a draft or when I finish, you know, the product and you go back and read it until you're sick of reading it.

And there's nothing else that you can think of that needs to be changed.

So that doesn't, you know, that that's not so different, but the thing that, the thing that that is different, obviously, in writing in writing a novel from writing a column is you got you got more room to play.

You got more space to, to, to play around with.

And, writing a column is about trying to, you know, trying to make sense of what, you know, whatever the thing it that's going on in the news or to whatever's happening in the world, and you've got to do this in a, in a very short period of time.

So it's, it's you have to rely on of it, but you have to be very economical with your words.

But the reader can never sense that you're in a hurry.

Holly> Sure.

Leonard> <laughs> You know?

Holly> Yeah.

That's quite an art.

Leonard> It has to seem like you're just sort of lazing along Yeah, let me tell you this story.

And here's what I think.

And here's this other thing.

And, you know, it's really been it's really moving like this.

<snaps> But the reader can't can't sense that.

So that's that's really one thing with a novel, you know, you have you have space, you have room to play and you have room to to digress.

Hopefully the digressions are interesting, you know, but if not, then you're wasting your time and the reader's time.

But you have room to let that digress and explore.

And of course, you know the you know, when you're writing a novel, I mean, you're writing a column, you're bound by whatever the facts are of the news story.

In a, novel, the facts are whatever you say they are pretty much.

So you get you get to play it.

Basically, you get up every morning and you go play with your imaginary friends.

That's <laughs> that's the process of writing a novel.

And then when it when it's done, you kind of miss them, you know, you miss your you miss your imaginary friend.

Holly> I love that you got there because this is something I do love talking about.

I want to talk about the bond that you get with these characters.

I mean, you already talked about, Thelma.

And who was the other one that you got?

You weren't so close.

Yeah.

So.

Leonard> Thelma and George.

Holly> Yes, so tell me about that bond that you have with these characters in your books.

Leonard> Well, <laughs> it's kind of odd because you know, that bad things are going to happen to them and you're and you're literally the author of those bad things.

So you feel you feel terrible for them.

But that doesn't stop you from doing the bad things.

‘Cause if you don't do the bad things or if you don't write the bad things, then you don't have a book, you know?

So, I, Stephen King says that in writing a novel, the trick is to create people that you know, that are vulnerable people that that you relate to, that you like, and then put them in the absolute last situation that they want to be in and watch them work their way out.

And so that's what you end up doing.

And you feel bad for them, you know, and you, you root for them or some in some cases you root against them because, you know, not everybody is a protagonist, but, you know, you really are invested in them.

And when you're when you're done writing for the day, you can sometimes feel and hear them, you know, they're they're talking to you and they're and they're, you know, explaining you know, or giving you ideas or whatever.

And that's when you really know that they're alive.

And when you try to make a character do something that a character that he or she would not do, something happens to the writing.

It just sort of sours like milk, you know?

<laughs> And it's like, okay, this isn't really working because it's not within this particular character's repertoire.

So there's there's really this sort of, you know, give and take.

You know, when I say imaginary friend, I mean, I'm not, I'm joking, but not really, because there is a there is a sense that, you know, you're you're you're dealing with fully formed people and you're going to hang out with them and watch them do things that maybe they shouldn't do, or things that maybe are very brave or very dumb or whatever.

And you're just they're, you know, navigating it with them every, every morning.

Holly> And do they stay with you or do you ever let go?

Leonard> No, it it's kind of hard.

You miss them.

You know, I miss Thelma and her husband, George.

I miss Adam and Luther.

You know, I've finished a book since that's, which hasn't been published yet.

And I miss those characters already.

So, you know, the only solution is to jump into another one <laughs> you know, create some more imaginary people and, you know, go spend 6 to 8 months playing with them.

Holly> Yeah.

Well, I really appreciate that.

I, I love to hear you talk about that.

And I appreciate that bond that you have.

But, you're a professor now.

And so you're working with, early 20s, right?

Leonard> Yeah.

Holly> Do they understand that?

And if they don't, how do you get them to a place where they do?

Leonard> Well, most of my- all of my students are journalism students as opposed to writing novels.

So, what I'm trying to teach them is not so much how to play with your imaginary friends as how to value, how to find and then value facts as opposed to non factual information, which are - the ethos is full of right now.

And to teach them how to express themselves, in the most, coherent and efficient way.

Holly> Tell us about the challenge of that in this day and age.

Leonard> It's an extreme challenge because, again, that we're dealing with so many, bad faith actors who have put so much garbage into the ether that, it becomes easy to believe stuff or to base your opinions on stuff that has no basis in reality or in fact.

I think that's the scariest development, that I can imagine.

You know, because if you're if your conclusions and your, your, your decisions are not based in fact, then you're going to make some very reckless and foolish decisions and reach some, some insupportable conclusions.

And that can only be bad for the country.

You know, I don't think a country can survive founded on on misinformation.

So I, I think it's critical stuff.

Right now, I think it's, I call it the misinformation crisis.

And I think it's the most critical thing, that we're dealing with.

I call it the crisis that underlies every other crisis, whether whether your, your greatest fear is, is the, global warming or women's, you know, reproductive freedoms or crime or whatever your issue may be.

The misinformation crisis makes it worse.

Holly> Sure.

Leonard> You know, because if you don't know what you're talking about, when you're going to advance whatever that cause is, then how can you be effective?

Holly> So you and I were talking about the, what used to be known as “print journalism” that we're not really - Leonard> <laughs> Back in the day!

Holly> We're not really hearing that anymore.

Tell me about your research process.

You probably relied a lot on what you and I know as “print journalism.” Do you fear that, you know, some of these records and everything won't be kept like they were, and the security of those?

Leonard> Yeah, you mean the ability to go back and look at the past to figure out what was what?

Yeah, there's a line from, from the book, 1984 that I, that I quote often, but I can't do it from memory.

But the basic sense of it is that, you know, The Party - In 1984, The Party, has has decreed that whatever the only truth is, whatever The Party says is true, and what The Party says is true changes from time to time.

And so there's this great quote where Winston Smith, who's who's our protagonist - it is Winston Smith, I believe, in 1984, our protagonist, is talking about, well, he knows that such and such a thing happened, but the knowledge only exists in his brain because all of the facts, all of the records have been changed to reflect whatever The Party's new reality is.

And if the records have been changed and the only place a knowledge exists is in your brain, then of what use is it?

You know, and so that's, you know, that's the scary thing.

And it, you know, 1984 came out in 1949 and it's astonishing how prescient, George Orwell was in describing the society that we've been living in, now, which is, you know, this whole idea of, of fact being optional and people not really caring what the facts are, people not only not knowing and not only not caring, but actively rejecting.

Holly> Sure.

As our time wraps up, I do want to make sure that we include this.

What do you hope that your audience gets out of your books?

Leonard> Entertainment.

Entertainment first and foremost, and then, you know, maybe to ask some questions or to reach some understanding or some comprehension that they didn't have before about the way, you know, the world has worked for other folks.

You know, historically, I think those, you know, those are the two best things.

Has the feedback that you've gotten from your books versus your columns - Does it vary or is it similar?

Leonard> More positive with the books.

<laughs> I think somebody that hates you isn't going to invest the time to read 400 some-odd pages <laughs> and then and then shoot you a note telling you how terrible you are.

So there's so it's probably a, higher ratio of, of, of, of like, to, to dislike than in the columns.

Holly> All right.

Well, thanks so much for joining us.

This has been really a great conversation that I've enjoyed.

Leonard> Thank you.

Holly> We appreciate you being here, and we appreciate you, as well, joining us here for Books by the River.

We know you have a choice when it comes to your entertainment and your news, and so, the fact that you landed here really means a lot to us.

I'm Holly Jackson, the host of Books by the River.

We'll see you next time.

Leonard> This is from chapter two.

This is when Luther is in a nursing home, and he's visiting a friend of his.

And the friend tells him - the friend has dementia, has Alzheimer's, early onset Alzheimer's.

And, the friend keeps telling him, “I saw the man that lynched your folks,” but the friend also thinks that John F Kennedy is still president, even though John Kennedy was assassinated two years ago, and the friend keeps repeating himself as patients with Alzheimer's do, so Luther at first doesn't take it very seriously when he says, “I saw the man who lynched your parents.” And this this picks up afterward.

Luther has decided, “Well, you know, maybe I should go look through this facility and just see.” So this picks up after as he's been looking through, knocking on doors and opening doors, and he reaches the sixth room.

The figure on the bed was only a shape - a mountain range of shoulder and legs.

The last of the day's late winter sunlight filtered in and Luther saw with a start, that the man was turned toward the door, and that he was looking at Luther, pale eyes, alert and curious in the drooping, colorless face of someone who has suffered a stroke.

His right hand jittered aimlessly.

He made an inarticulate sound that might have been a greeting, and Luther's heart stumbled.

The man in the bed had been big, once, had been powerfully built, but age and infirmity had carved the power out of him, left the skin sagging limply on his bones.

Now he was just the leavings of the man he once had been.

A thin thread of drool connected his flaccid lips to his bed shirt.

He pulled those lips up into a smile then, eyes still watching Luther, hand still moving without purpose.

The man didn't recognize him.

Luther knew him, though.

Indeed, Luther would never forget him.

All at once, he felt hot.

He felt dizzy.

He couldn't breathe.

Johan's voice, “I saw him, you know?” At first, Luther had dismissed it as just more evidence of the old man's crumbling memory, his fading hold on reality.

But this was no hallucination or fantasy.

Luther was in a room with Floyd Bitters.

He was in a room with the man who murdered his parents.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Major funding for Books by the River is brought to you by the ETV Endowment of South Carolina.

For more than 40 years, the ETV Endowment of South Carolina has been a partner of South Carolina, ETV, and South Carolina Public Radio.

This program is supported by South Carolina Humanities, a not for profit organization inspiring, engaging, and enriching South Carolinians with programs on literature, history, culture, and heritage.

SC Humanities receives funding from the National Endowment for the Humanities.

Democracy demands wisdom.

Additional funding for Books by the River is provided by Visit Beaufort, Port Royal and Sea Islands and Osher Lifelong Learning Institute at USC Beaufort.

♪ ♪