♪♪ >> ERIC: THE TIME HAS COME FOR THIS WEEK'S VERSION OF THE POLITICAL PANEL.

DEMOCRATS UP FIRST.

JEFF HAYDEN IS A FORMER STATE SENATOR, NOW A LEGISLATIVE LOBBYIST.

ALYSEN NESSE IS A LONGTIME LOBBYIST AND DFL ACTIVIST.

REPUBLICANS ON THE COUCH TONIGHT, FORMER STATE SENATOR, NOW PRACTICING ATTORNEY, FRITZ KNAAK.

AND WE ROUND OUT THE GROUP TONIGHT WITH A CURRENT MEMBER OF THE LEGISLATURE, REPRESENATIVE WALTER HUDSON HAILS FROM ALBERTVILLE.

SENATOR HAYDEN, WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THE BIPARTISAN OUTPOURING OF SUPPORT THAT EVIDENCED ITSELF TODAY?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, I WAS REALLY GLAD TO SEE THAT.

I THINK THAT THAT'S WHERE WE NEED TO GET BACK TO.

I THINK WE HAD STARTED TO KIND OF CLEARLY ALLOW THE FRINGES OF OUR PARTIES KIND OF TAKE OVER, AND I'M REALLY HOPING THAT THIS -- IF THERE'S ANYTHING OUT OF THIS THAT IT STARTS TO BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER AND THEY REALLY START TO MEASURE, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN STILL REPRESENT YOUR INTERESTS, BUT REALLY MEASURE KIND F HOW YOU SAY IT.

>> Eric: IS THIS A BUILDING BLOCK FOR SOMETHING BIGGER GOING DOWN THE LINE OR IS IT, YOU KNOW, A FEW MONTHS WILL PASS, AND SAME SOLD, AIM OLD?

>> I THINK THOSE OF US WHO ARE MOST DIRECTLY IMPACTED BY IT, THOSE OF US AT THE CAPITOL, LEGISLATORS, STAFF, THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO GO AWAY ANY TIME SOON.

THIS IS GOING TO BE A DEFINITIVE MOMENT THAT RESHAPES HOW PEOPLE THINK.

I WAS TALKING WITH REPRESENTATIVE HOLLINS IN THE GREEN ROOM ABOUT THE UNIQUE EXPERIENCE THAT THE FIRST-YEAR CLASS, THE FOLKS WHO WERE ELECTED JUST LAST YEAR, THE UNIQUENESS AS OF THIS EXPERIENCE OF NOT JUST SERVING IN THIS HISTORIC TIE, BUT THEN THIS TRAGEDY TAKING PLACE AS SOON AS THEY HIT THE INTERIM, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO BE A DEFINITIVE FORMATIVE EXPERIENCE GOING FORWARD.

[ SAME OLD SAME OLD ] >> Cathy: IT WAS NICE TO SEE NOT ONLY CURRENT AWMAKERS BUT FORMER LAWMAKERS THERE AS WELL.

IT WAS LIKE -- ALMOST LIKE A REUNION.

IT WAS INTERESTING TO WATCH.

>> WELL, IT'S AN IMPORTANT THING TO REMEMBER, IT ISN'T AS THOUGH THE WHOLE INSTITUTION HAS FALLEN APART, QUITE THE OPPOSITE.

WHAT WAS NICE ABOUT THIS, IN A WAY, IF YOU COULD SAY IT WAS NICE, WAS THAT IT WAS A REMINDER JUST HOW DEEP THE INSTITUTION IS.

HOW MUCH IT'S RESPECTED BY MINNESOTANS.

NOT JUST THE PEOPLE THAT PARTICIPATE IN IT, YOU KNOW, IN THE POLITICS OF IT, THE POLITICS OF IT HAVE COME AND GONE FOR 100 SOME ODD YEARS NOW.

THE INSTITUTION, YOU NOW, OF THE LEGISLATURE, OVERALL, HAS STAYED STEADY.

AND IS STRONGLY SUPPORTED.

THERE ISN'T ANYBODY SUGGESTING REPLACING THAT.

BUT IT WAS GOOD THAT EVERYBODY HAD THIS REMINDER, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS A HORRIBLE WAY TO BE REMINDED.

>> Eric: IT'S A SMALL TOWN, THE STATE CAPITOL, AND THE RELATIONSHIPS ARE IMPORTANT IN A SMALL TOWN, AND WE'VE SEEN SOME OF THAT REFLECTED, THINK.

>> OH, ABSOLUTELY.

IT'S A SMALL TOWN, IT'S TRULY A FAMILY, SOMETIMES A DYSFUNCTIONAL FAMILY, AND THERE'S SOMETIMES A CRAZY UNCLE OR AUNT.

BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, WE ARE A FAMILY, WE'RE ALL MINNESOTANS, AND IT REALLY FELT THAT WAY TODAY AND THE PAST COUPLE WEEKS.

>> Cathy: I THOUGHT SENATOR JULIA COLEMAN HAD AN INTERESTING TWEET TODAY.

PART OF IT, IT WAS A LONG ONE, I PULLED THIS OUT OF HER TWEET, THIS IS NOT ABOUT VOTES OR POWER, WE'RE HONORING A LIFE OF SERVICE.

YOU KNOW.

BECAUSE, OF COURSE, THERE ARE SOME FOLKS WHO HAVE WEIGHED IN ON THIS AND THEIR RHETORIC N THIS HAS NOT BEEN GREAT, OBVIOUSLY.

WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF WHAT SENATOR OLEMAN SAID?

>> WELL, I WAS HAPPY TO SEE THAT.

I WASN'T SURPRISED.

SHE SERVES AS KIND OF A MODERATE VOICE.

I DON'T KNOW IF SHE WOULD LIKE FOR ME TO SAY THAT, BEGINNING ON THE SITUATION.

BUT IN TERMS OF -- NOT IN TERMS OF HER IDEOLOGY, BUT IN TERMS OF HOW SHE APPROACHES THE WORK.

AND I THINK THAT THAT'S SOMETHING THAT, YOU KNOW, WE NEED TO REALLY THINK ABOUT.

OUR WORDS, WE'RE LEADERS, AND OUR WORDS MEAN SOMETHING TO PEOPLE AND WE'RE KIND OF AT THE TOP OF THAT FOOD CHAIP AND IF -- CHAIN, AND IF E'RE NOT BEHAVING WELL, THEN, ALL OF A SUDDEN, SOCIETY FEELS LIKE IT CAN.

>> Cathy: THE DEHUMANIZATION OF A POLITICAL OPPONENT ON BOTH SIDE, BECAUSE BOTH SIDES DO THIS, HOW DO YOU -- HOW DO YOU GET BACK FROM THAT?

HOW DO YOU REPAIR?

BECAUSE IT'S SO EASY TO DEHUMANIZE YOUR POLITICAL OPPONENTS, NOT YOU SPECIFICALLY, BUT YOU KNOW WHAT I'M SAYING.

GIVE NO QUARTER, YOU KNOW, KEEP FIGHTING.

AGAIN, THE RHETORIC IS SO SHARP.

I DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW WE COME BACK FROM THAT.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> THERE IS PERSISTENT PRESSURE AMONGST THE ACTIVISTS ON BOTH SIDES TO GIVE NO QUARTER, TO SHOW NO GRACE.

TO BE A FIGHTER, RIGHT?

AND WHAT I THINK HAPPENS IS THAT PEOPLE MISTAKE OR CONFUSE CONVICTION WITH VITRIOL AND ASSUME THAT YOU DON'T HAVE CONVICTION UNLESS YOU'RE WILLING TO EXPRESS VITRIOL.

THE OTHER THING THAT FACTORS INTO THIS IS JUST THE BREADTH OF THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM TODAY VERSUS THE WAY IT WAS IN, SAY, THE 1960s, WHERE SOMEBODY LIKE JFK AND NIXON WERE CLOSER TOGETHER IN TERMS OF WHAT IT IS THAT THEY ACTUALLY BELIEVE.

THE IDEALOGICAL SPECTRUM HAS BECOME SO BROAD THAT FOLKS ON EITHER ND TRULY CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHY THE OTHER PERSON BELIEVES WHAT THEY BELIEVE AND THAT FOSTERS DEHUMANIZATION.

>> Cathy: YOU WANTED TO SAY SOMETHING.

>> YEAH, I ACTUALLY WANTED TO BRING UP SPEAKER HORTMAN, WHICH WAS JUST A BRILLIANT ELECTION STRATEGIST, BUT ELECTION STRATEGIST, AND HE REALLY WANTED TO MOVE AWAY FROM THE OTHER END OF THE OTHER SIDE, TO CREATE A VISION, TO CREATE ACTUAL POLICIES AND THINGS THAT PEOPLE COULD VOTE FOR, NOT JUST AGAINST.

>> THESE KINDS OF DIVISIONS, THOUGH, IN POLITICS, IN MINNESOTA, HISTORICALLY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN THERE.

YOU'VE HAD JUST REAL INTENSE KINDS OF DIVISIVENESS GOING BACK WELL INTO THE 1800s.

YET, SOMEHOW, AGAIN, INSTITUTIONALLY IT ATTERED AND SOMETIMES WE GOT OVER IT JUST BECAUSE THE ELECTORATE WAS SICK AND TIRED OF IT.

AT SOME POINT, IT HAPPENS THAT THE ELECTORATE WANTS TO HEAR A MESSAGE PRESENTED SOMEWHAT DIFFERENTLY.

THEY'RE NOT INTERESTED IN THE PERSON THAT'S OUT THERE ON TOP OF THE SOAP BOX SCREAMING AND YELLING.

THEY WANT SOMETHING MORE SUBSTANTIVE.

>> Cathy: BUT WHAT'S DIFFERENT, DON'T YOU THINK, SOCIAL MEDIA.

I MEAN, IT'S SO EASY, RIGHT, TO PILLARY YOUR OPPONENTS ON SOCIAL MEDIA?

>> YEAH, AND IT'S IMPULSIVE.

SO WHAT HAPPENS IS, YOU KNOW, IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY, YOU WAIT UNTIL TOMORROW TO BE ABLE TO GO AND HAVE THAT CONVERSATION OR TO GET ON THE FLOOR, BUT IF YOU CAN JUST DO IT RIGHT IN YOUR BEDROOM, IF YOU WILL, OR SET UP A WHOLE PRODUCTION STUDIO IN YOUR SPARE BEDROOM, I THINK THAT THAT'S THE ISSUE.

>> Eric: THERE WAS FORCED BIPARTISANSHIP IN THE MOST RECENT SESSION.

67-67 IN THE HOUSE.

AND YOU SERVED WHEN THERE WASN'T A 67-67.

AND I WONDER IF YOU COULD TELL US THE DIFFERENCES, IF THERE WERE ANY?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I'LL TELL YOU THIS, IT WAS MUCH EASIER BEING IN THE MINORITY UNDER A TRIFECTA BECAUSE ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS COMPLAIN AND BE RIGHT.

>> YEAH.

>> WHEN YOU ACTUALLY SHARE POSSIBILITY -- RESPONSIBILITY IN A DIVIDED HOUSE AND YOU HAVE TO GOVERN, IT CHANGES THE DYNAMIC QUITE A BIT.

AND I CERTAINLY FOUND MYSELF SPEAKING SIGNIFICANTLY LESS THIS YEAR THAN I DID MY FIRST TWO YEARS.

>> Eric: BECAUSE YOU HAD MORE INPUT ON THE FRONT END, THAT THE IDEA?

>> WELL, THAT, AND ALSO JUST THE KNOWLEDGE THAT AT THE END OF THE DAY, AT THE END OF THE SESSION, YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO COME TOGETHER AND BURY A HATCHET AND COME UP WITH A BUDGET THAT THE STATE CAN LIVE WITH.

>> Eric: I'M ALWAYS INTRIGUED ON THE END OF SESSION, WHEN THE RETIREES GIVE THEIR SPEECH.

AND INVARIABLY, THEIR PROUDEST MOMENT IS WORKING WITH SOMEONE ACROSS THE AISLE ON SOME BIG BILL.

YET, THAT DOESN'T SEEM TO GET TRANSLATED INTO THE FABRIC OF THE PLACE GOING FORWARD.

>> WELL, AGAIN, I GET BACK TO THIS, BUT THE INSTITUTION ITSELF IS SOMETHING YOU FEEL.

YOU KNOW?

AND SOME OF MY BEST FRIENDS FROM BACK IN THE DAYS WHEN I WAS SERVING, YOU KNOW, WERE DEMOCRATS.

AND NOSE TO NOSE, WE HAD SOME NASTY NASTY NASTY DEBATES AND DISAGREEMENTS, BUT ULTIMATELY, YOU SHARE THIS COMMON EXPERIENCE SERVING IN THIS INCREDIBLE INSTITUTION THAT IS THE LEGISLATURE.

AND, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, THIS IS AN UNFORTUNATE TIME TO BE REMINDED OF THAT, BUT IT'S A VERY STRONG INSTITUTION.

AND IT WILL SURVIVE THIS.

BUT IT WILL ALSO PROBABLY BE STRONGER WITH PEOPLE REALIZING JUST HOW IMPORTANT IT IS.

>> Eric: PRESIDENT BIDEN IN TOWN.

WENT TO VISIT THE HOFFMANS.

>> YEAH, I SAW THAT PICTURE.

>> Eric: THE PICTURE WAS AMAZING.

>> VERY NEAT PICTURE, YES.

>> HE ALSO CAME TO THE CAPITOL.

>> Eric: YEAH, HE CAME TO THE CAPITOL AS WELL.

I MEAN, IT'S VERY INTRIGUING.

>> SPIRIT OF BIPARTISAN SUPPORT OF THOSE KINDS OF THINGS, I'LL JUST NOD, SAY, GLAD HE CAME.

>> YEAH, NO, ABSOLUTELY.

IT SOUNDS LIKE VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS WILL BE AT THE SERVICES TOMORROW AS WELL.

SO I DON'T KNOW THE WHOLE LIST, BUT -- BECAUSE IT'S VERY VERY TIGHT, BUT THAT'S KIND OF WHAT WE'RE HEARING IN THE MEDIA CIRCLE.

SO I THINK THAT HOPEFULLY THAT'S A SIGN.

>> Cathy: I'M WONDERINGINGS -- I'M WONDERING, HERE, MOVING FORWARD, WHETHER YOU THINK IT WILL BE HARDER TO RECRUIT CANDIDATES?

>> YOU KNOW, I ACTUALLY HAD A GREAT CONVERSATION WITH A CURRENT HOUSE MEMBER TODAY AT THE MEMORIAL.

WHO SAID THERE'S NOTHING MORE IMPORTANT THAN RECRUITING GOOD PUBLIC SERVANTS LIKE MELISSA HORTMAN SUPPORTING THEM AND GETTING THEM ELECTED.

AND I DO FEAR THAT PEOPLE WILL BE SCARED TO RUN, BUT THERE'S NOTHING MORE IMPORTANT THAN RIGHT NOW THAN GOOD PEOPLE RUNNING FOR OFFICE.

>> Cathy: I THOUGHT I SAW YOU NOD YOUR HEAD.

>> IN THE END, I'D SAY, I DON'T THINK IT'S GOING TO CHANGE ANYTHING OTHER THAN PEOPLE DOING RISK ASSESSMENT.

YOU KNOW, PEOPLE THAT MAY THINK TWICE THAT OTHERWISE WOULDN'T HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT IT WHEN THEY HEAR SOMEBODY POUNDING ON THEIR DOOR, 2:00, 3:00 IN THE MORNING, I SUSPECT THAT THERE'S AT LEAST A PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE IN THE LEGISLATURE, EVEN NOW, THAT WOULD COME TO THE OOR AND HAVE SOME KIND OF WEAPON IN REACH, MAYBE THERE WILL BE A FEW MORE, BUT THAT DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN THAT THAT SHOULD BE THE CHANGE.

WHAT WILL BE DIFFERENT IS HOW PEOPLE REACT AND RESPOND TO THIS POTENTIAL THREAT BECAUSE THESE THREATS THAT WE'RE SEEING NOW ARE NOT OBVIOUS, IT'S NOT KOOKS, THE FELLOW IN NEW YORK, BELTER -- BOELTER OVER HERE, THERE ARE DECENT PEOPLE IF YOU LOOK AT THEM EVERY DAY, SEEM AWFUL NORMAL, HOW DO YOU ADDRESS THAT?

>> Eric: DOOR KNOCKING, WALKING IN PARADES, WHETHER TO RUN OR NOT, WHAT'S A PITCH TO HAVE PEOPLE STILL SERVE?

>> WELL, I THINK YOU HAVE TO NOT WALK IN FEAR.

AND THAT'S EASIER SAID THAN DONE.

I THINK IT'S EASIER OR THOSE OF US WHO HAVE THE AUDACITY TO PUT OUR NAMES IN THE HAT TO BEGIN WITH THAN PERHAPS OUR SPOUSES, OUR FAMILIES.

I KNOW I HAD A PARADE THE WEEK AFTER THE TRAGIC DEATHS OF MELISSA HORTMAN AND HER HUSBAND, MARK, AND MY WIFE WAS NOT TOO KEEN ON ME WALKING IN THAT, BUT I CHOSE TO DO IT ANYWAY, AND IT WAS TOTALLY FINE.

THERE ARE OTHER EVENT THAT IS NEED TO TAKE PLACE, I MEAN, YOU CAN'T -- EVENTS THAT NEED TO TAKE PLACE.

I MEAN, YOU CAN'T STOP LIVING BECAUSE SOMETHING LIKE THIS HAPPENS.

AND IF GOOD PEOPLE DECIDE THAT THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE A PART OF THIS PROCESS, THEN THAT'S GOING TO BE MORE HARMFUL THAN WHAT WE'VE EXPERIENCED.

YEAH.

>> Eric: WONDERFUL PERSPECTIVES.

>> Cathy: THANK YOU.