♪ >> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

WAR AND SUFFERING.

UCRAN AND GAZA TAKE CENTER STAGE AT THE U.N.

TRUMP FINALLY BACKS UKRAINE AND CALLS RUSSIA A PAPER TIGER.

BUT AMID REPEATED INCURSIONS INTO NATO AIRSPACE, HOW SHOULD THEY RESPOND?

I ASK NATO SAYING MARK RUTTE.

>>> AND THEN PALESTINE'S PLEA TO THE U.N.

PEDRO SANCHEZ TELLS ME WHY ALLIES MUST TAKE ACTION TO END ISRAEL'S WAR ON GAZA.

>>> PLUS, WEAPONIZING THE DOJ AS TRUMP GOES AFTER HIS POLITICAL OPPONENTS.

WHAT THIS MEANS FOR THE RULE OF LAW AND DEMOCRACY IN AMERICA.

♪ >>> "AMANPOUR & CO."

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THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN NEW YORK.

AS WORLD LEADERS MEET AT THE UNITED NATIONS THIS WEEK, THE PEOPLE OF UKRAINE ARE TERRORIZED, MANY OF THEM NOW LIVING UNDER CONSTANT RUSSIAN BOMBARDMENT.

MEANWHILE, PUTIN CONTINUES TO PROVOKE NATO ALLIES WITH REPEATED INCURSIONS BY DRONES AND JETS INTO NATO AIRSPACE.

TWO OF DENMARK'S AIRPORTS WERE FORCED TO CLOSE THIS WEEK BECAUSE OF SUSPECTED RUSSIAN DRONES.

IT IS AN INCREASINGLY SERIOUS SITUATION, AND SO A SIGNIFICANT CHANGE IN TONE BY PRESIDENT TRUMP MAY HAVE BEEN WELCOME.

HE NOW SAYS UKRAINE CAN WIN THE WAR WITH EUROPEAN AND NATO HELP.

WHILE HE'S ALSO TAKING A HARDER LINE WITH RUSSIA, BUT NOTHING SEEMS TO BRING PUTIN TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE YET.

SO WHAT CAN NATO DO?

I ASKED SECRETARY GENERAL MARK RUTTE WHEN HE JOINED ME JUST OUTSIDE U.N.

HEADQUARTERS A LITTLE EARLIER.

>> SECRETARY GENERAL, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> SO IT'S BEEN QUITE A NATO-FOCUSED GENERAL ASSEMBLY, WITH ALL SORTS OF SPEECHES AND COMMENTARIES AROUND THE EDGES ABOUT DIRECTLY.

SO PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY OF UKRAINE SAID THE FOLLOWING, "NOT INTERNATIONAL LAW, NOT COOPERATION, BUT WEAPONS DECIDE WHO TO SURVIVE."

AND HE SAID THAT EVEN BEING PART OF THE LONG-STANDING MILITARY ALLIANCE DOESN'T MEAN YOU'RE SAFE.

SO IS THAT A DIRECT SHOT ACROSS NATO'S BOW?

>> NO, I DON'T THINK SO.

AND OF COURSE HE IS RIGHT ON THE WEAPONS BECAUSE HE NEEDS THE WEAPONS.

THE GOOD NEWS IS THE U.S.

SINCE MID-JULY IS SUPPLYING THE WEAPONS AGAIN, PAID FOR BY ALLIES.

THE PRESIDENT DECIDED TO OPEN THE FLOODGATES AGAIN, BOTH LETHAL AND NONLETHAL WEAPONS INTO UKRAINE, WHICH IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT FOR UKRAINIANS.

AND IT HELPS THEM TO STAY STRONG IN THE FIGHT.

THEY'RE EXCEPTIONAL SUCCESSFUL.

>> THIS BUSINESS ABOUT YOU ALL HAVING TO PAY FOR AMERICAN WEAPONS WHICH USED TO GO FROM THEIR BUDGET, HOW STRESSFUL IS THAT FOR NATO'S BUDGET AND VARIOUS GOVERNMENTS' BUDGETS?

>> OF COURSE THEY HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT THE MONEY IS THERE.

BUT I THINK IT IS LOGICAL.

EUROPE IS STEPPING UP.

EUROPE IS STEPPING UP AT THE NATO SUMMIT WITH 5% SPENDING COMMITMENT.

NOW EUROPE IS STEPPING UP SAYING HEY, LISTEN, IT'S ONLY LOGICAL THAT WE PAY FOR THESE WEAPONS.

IT'S IMPORTANT THAT U.S.

IS SUPPLYING THEM, BECAUSE OTHERWISE UKRAINE COULD NOT SURVIVE.

THESE ARE CRUCIAL DELIVERIES.

>> IN YOUR CONVERSATIONS ABOUT A POTENTIAL DAY AFTER, ARE THERE ANY DEVELOPMENTS IN TERMS OF SECURITY GUARANTEES FOR UKRAINE, INCLUDING FROM THE UNITED STATES?

>> WELL, LET'S FIRST OF ALL PRAY AND HOPE THAT THERE IS AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

I KNOW THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS WORKING DAY AND NIGHT TO ACHIEVE THAT MOMENT AND TO GET THERE.

THE EUROPEANS ON THE LEADERSHIP OF THE FRENCH AND THE BRITISH CAME TOGETHER, ORGANIZING THE SECURITY GUARANTEES.

THE U.S.

HAS NOW SAID WE WANT TO GET INVOLVED.

SO THAT DEBATE IS NOW TAKING PLACE.

BUT OF COURSE ALL OF THIS CAN ONLY BE IMPLEMENTED BOTH A LONG-TERM CEASEFIRE OR A FULL PEACE DEAL.

>> SO YOU SAY THE PRESIDENT IS WORKING DAY AND NIGHT ON IT.

EVEN AT THE PODIUM, HE ADMITTED THAT HE THOUGHT IT WOULD BE ONE OF THE MORE EASY CONFLICTS TO SOLVE BECAUSE OF HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN.

AND HE IS BASICALLY ANNOUNCED TO THE WORLD AND TO PUTIN, THAT IT'S DEFINITELY NOT GOING AS HE WISHED, AND THAT PUTIN IS, WELL, STRINGING HIM ALONG, ESSENTIALLY.

WHAT IS THE HOPE, DO YOU THINK, FOR PUTIN TO UNDERSTAND THAT IT'S TIME TO AGREE TO A CEASEFIRE, TO NEGOTIATE AN END?

>> I THINK THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HIT IT EXACTLY AS HE SHOULD HAVE BY SAYING THE PAPER TIGER.

AND THE RUSSIANS COMING BACK YESTERDAY THE WHOLE DAY SAYING NO, WE ARE NOT A PAPER TIGER.

WE ARE A BEAR.

WHEN YOU SEE A BEAR, YOU KNOW YOU WILL SEE A BEAR.

>> THAT'S JUST POSTURE.

>> THAT MEANS THAT RUSSIA IS INSECURE, AND THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS ABLE TO HIT A NERVE, PROBABLY AT THE HIGHEST ECHELONS OF THE KREMLIN.

WHY IS THIS?

BECAUSE IF I WAS A HISTORY OF STUDENT, AND I AM, AND PUTIN IS ALSO A STUDENT OF HISTORY, AND HE LOVES HIS COUNTRY AND IS PROUD OF THAT HISTORY, I WOULD NOT BE IN A GOOD PLACE.

HE HAS LOST ONE MILLION PEOPLE NOW, OR SERIOUSLY WOUNDED IN THIS WAR.

HE IS LOSING IN ONE MONTH WHAT THE SOVIETS LOST IN TEN YEARS IN AFGHANISTAN, ONLY IN ONE MONTH.

SO THIS IS HAPPENING AT THE MOMENT.

AND HE IS NOT MAKING THE PROGRESS HE WANTS.

HE HAS THESE LONG LINES WAITING FOR THE GASOLINE STATIONS TO FILL UP THE CARS WITH GASOLINE BECAUSE UKRAINE'S SUCCESSFUL IN HITTING THE OIL REFINERIES IN RUSSIA.

SO HE'S NOT IN A GOOD PLACE.

NOW THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP FEELS THAT, AND HE IS PUTTING PRESSURE ON PUTIN, COME TO THE TABLE.

>> JUST A QUICK THING, BECAUSE HE'S NOT IN A GOOD PLACE.

BUT YOU REMEMBER IN THE OVAL OFFICE, TRUMP HAD TOLD UKRAINE THAT YOU'RE NOT IN A GOOD PLACE.

YOU HAVE NO CARDS.

NOW HE IS SAYING THAT ACTUALLY, I THINK WITH NATO HELP, YOU CAN WIN BACK ALL YOUR TERRITORY.

HOW DID YOU ANALYZE WHAT THAT MEANT?

IS THE AIM NOW TO HELP ZELENSKYY AND UKRAINE ENOUGH TO WIN BACK THINGS, EVEN LIKE CRIMEA, THE DONBAS?

>> I THINK WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A PRESIDENT REALLY TRYING TO GET PUTIN TO THE TABLE.

AND SO FAR PUTIN HAS NOT PLAYED BALL.

AND HE WANTS HIM TO PLAY BALL.

AND COME THERE AND MAKE COMPROMISES AND END THIS TERRIBLE WAR.

AND THERE WILL ALSO BE DISCUSSIONS ON VERY SENSITIVE ISSUES, INCLUDING TERRITORY, AND BOTH PRESIDENT TRUMP, MYSELF, WE ALL AGREE, IT'S UP TO PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY TO DISCUSS TERRITORY AND MAKE THE NECESSARY DEALS WHEN THAT MOMENT COMES.

BUT AT THE MOMENT, OF COURSE, THAT PROBLEM IS THAT PUTIN IS NOT THERE, AND THEREFORE THE 5% SPENDING COMMITMENT, THIS WEAPONS DELIVERY FROM THE U.S.

INTO UKRAINE PAID FOR BY ALLIES, BUT ALSO THE DISCUSSION NOW BETWEEN THE EU AND THE U.S.

ON MORE SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA IS EXTREMELY HELPFUL TO PUT THE PRESSURE ON PUTIN AND GET HIM THERE.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT WILL HAPPEN?

BECAUSE PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SAID THAT'S AVAILABLE, BUT HE KEEPS HAVING THESE ROLLING DEADLINES.

DO YOU THINK FINALLY HE WILL PUT THOSE SANCTIONS ON?

>> HE ALREADY DID.

>> NOT THE BIG ONES.

>> THE BIG -- >> ON RUSSIA.

>> YEAH, BUT THIS IMMEDIATELY IMPACTS RUSSIA, BECAUSE IT MEANS THAT NOW ON THE PHONE WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN IN MOSCOW AND ASKING HIM HEY, I SUPPORT YOU, BUT COULD YOU EXPLAIN TO ME THE STRATEGY?

BECAUSE I HAVE NOW BEEN HIT BY THESE 50% TARIFFS BY THE UNITED STATES.

SO PRESIDENT TRUMP IS IMPLEMENTING WHAT HE SAYS.

BUT, OF COURSE, WE ARE NOT HAPPY THAT SO FAR WE HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE COLLECTIVELY TO END THE WAR.

AND HE IS WORKING ON IT.

>> WHAT DO YOU MAKE, BECAUSE HE TALKED ABOUT NATO NATIONS, HE SAID.

I'LL PUT THOSE ON, BUT YOU ALSO HAVE TO STOP BUYING RUSSIAN ENERGY.

THERE IS TURKEY, HUNGARY, SLOVAKIA.

>> YEAH.

>> WHAT YOU TELLING THOSE NATIONS?

.

THERE ARE TWO.

A COUPLE OF THE NATIONS STILL BUY RUSSIAN OIL, AND I AGREE WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP, THEY SHOULD STOP.

AND I NOTICE EUROPEAN COMMISSION PRESIDENT IS WORKING ON THIS.

I KNOW THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP PERSONALLY IS WORKING ON THIS, INCLUDING DIRECTLY WITH VIKTOR ORBAN, THE PRIME MINISTER OF HUNGARY.

AND SECONDLY, URSULA VON DER LEYEN IS VERY ACTIVITY IN GAUGING THE SCOPE WITH THE WHITE HOUSE IN DISCUSSING WHAT WE CAN DO ABOUT CHINA, MAKING SURE WE PUT MORE PRESSURE ON CHINA, NOT EASY, BUT WE CAN GET THERE.

>> CAN YOU TELL ME, YOU COMMISSION PRESIDENT URSULA VON DER LEYEN.

YESTERDAY HERE ON THIS SPACE, SHE TOLD ME THAT SHOOTING DOWN RUSSIAN JETS THAT COME INTO NATO AIRSPACE AND DON'T HEED WARNINGS TO LEAVE IS NOW ON THE TROUBLE.

PRESIDENT TRUMP IN PUBLIC SAID THAT HE WOULD AGREE WITH NATO SHOOTING DOWN RUSSIAN JETS AND FLYING OBJECTS THAT ENTER NATO SPACE.

THAT MATCHES NATO'S ORIGINAL MANTRA, WHICH WAS NOT ONE INCH.

WE WILL DEFEND EVERY INCH AND EVERY CENTIMETER OF OUR TERRITORY AND OUR AIRSPACE.

WHERE DO YOU STAND ON THAT?

>> THIS IS WHAT WE'RE DOING OVER 50 YEARS NOW.

>> NO, BUT NOW.

IT HASN'T HAPPENED YET.

>> NOW IS NOT DIFFERENT FROM 50 YEARS AGO.

THE SOVIET UNION WAS THERE AND WITH THE RUSSIANS, IF THERE ARE AIRSPACE INCURSIONS, ULTIMATELY, YOU CAN TAKE THE TOUGHIST DECISION IF NECESSARY IF YOUR PEOPLE ARE THREATENED.

>> YES.

>> IF NOT, YOU WILL ESCORT THE PLANES OUT.

>> AND IF THEY DON'T, BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T HEEDED WARNINGS.

AND YOU HEARD THE POLES.

>> THIS IS NOT NEW.

OUR MILITARY, OUR MILITARY COMMANDERS, OUR FIGHTER JETS PILOTS, THEY CAN DO WHAT IS NECESSARY TO KEEP OUR PEOPLE SAFE.

IF THERE IS NO DIRE THREATS, THEY WILL ESCORT THE PLANES OUT OF ALLIED AIRSPACE.

IF THERE IS A DIRE THREAT, THEY MIGHT ULTIMATELY DO THE ULTIMATE THING.

>> WHICH IS SHOOT THEM DOWN?

>> IF NECESSARY.

BUT -- >> YOU REMEMBER TURKEY DID THAT.

YOU REMEMBER THE PRIME MINISTER TEN YEARS AGO, TURKEY DID THAT WHEN A SOVIET BOMBER CAME INTO ITS AIRSPACE, ONLY FOR 17 SECONDS, BUT HADN'T RESPONDED TO THE WARNINGS NOT TO ENTER.

AND THEY SHOT IT DOWN AND WORLD WAR III DIDN'T HAPPEN.

DO YOU THINK THAT PUTIN NEEDS ONE OF THESE LESSONS?

>> WHAT PUTIN NEEDS IS A CALM AND COLLECTED REACTION BY NATO.

EXACTLY WHAT WE DO.

WE HAVE THE BEST MILITARY IN THE WORLD.

WE'RE THE STRONGEST MILITARY ALLIANCE IN MILITARY HISTORY.

WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE DRONE INCURSIONS, THE DUTCH F-35 IS TAKE THEM DOWN WITH INCURSION IN ESTONIA LAST FRIDAY.

>> 12 MINUTES.

>> 12 MINUTES.

THE SWEDISH, THE FINNISH AND THE ITALIAN ALLIES ESCORTING THESE PLANES OUT OF ESTONIAN AIRSPACE.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT WE NEED TO DO.

AND THEN THEY ASSESS.

IF IN THAT ASETTLEMENTS, THEY WOULD COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT THE PLANES ARE A DIRE THREAT, THEY CAN MOVE UP IN THE ESCALATION LADDER.

BUT THIS IS NOT NEW.

MY ADVICE HERE IS LET'S LEAVE THIS WITH THE MILITARY.

THEY ARE TRAINED TO PREPARE FOR THIS.

OUR SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER OF EUROPE -- >> THE LEADERS OF THESE COUNTRIES, LIKE THE POLISH PRIME MINISTER, THE POLISH FOREIGN MINISTER.

>> THEY'RE SAYING IS RIGHT, IF NECESSARY, OF COURSE, OUR MILITARY PEOPLE CAN DO WHAT IS NECESSARY.

>> SO HOW DO YOU ASSESS, THEN, ESPECIALLY AFTER TRUMP'S STATEMENT ON THIS, THE TOP U.S.

GENERAL, THE.

>> THE SUPREME COMMANDER.

>> HE SAID FINE, HITTING A DRONE, GETTING IT OUT, FINE.

BUT A MANNED AIRCRAFT COULD TRIGGER A HIGH RISK OF ESCALATION IF SOMEONE GETS KILLED ON EITHER SIDE.

SO, AGAIN, TURKEY DID IT.

THERE WAS NO HIGHER ESCALATION.

WORLD WAR III DIDN'T BREAK OUT.

THIS KIND OF OPEN DIVISION BETWEEN NATO -- >> I SAW THIS ON CNN YESTERDAY.

BUT I DISAGREED WITH CNN YESTERDAY.

IT'S NOT OPEN DIVISION.

BECAUSE IN NATO, WE ALL AGREED THAT IT'S OUR MILITARY DOING THIS.

THEY ARE THE BEST WE HAVE.

WHAT THEY DID IN ESTONIA IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY'VE TRAINED AND PREPARED TO DO WHICH IS TO ENGAGE THESE AIRCRAFTS, MAKE CONTACT, AND IF NECESSARY, THEY CAN MOVE UP AND DO THE ULTIMATE THING.

>> YEP.

>> BUT IN NOT, THAT WHEN AN AIRCRAFT ENTERS YOUR AIRSPACE, YOU IMMEDIATE ALWAYS TAKE THE ULTIMATE DECISION, BECAUSE YOU WILL ALWAYS ASSESS THE THREAT AT THAT MOMENT.

AND THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED IN ESTONIA.

IT HAS HAPPENED SO MANY TIMES BEFORE.

UNDER THE SOVIET DAYS IT HAPPENED.

A AND THE AMERICANS, THE CANADIANS, THE EUROPEAN ALLIES, WE ALL HAVE TRAINED FOR THIS.

THERE IS NO DIVISION.

I AGREE WHAT THE PRESIDENT SAID, HAPPEN THE POLISH FOREIGN MINISTER SAID.

ULTIMATELY, YES, OUR MILITARY HAVE AUTHORITY TO DO WHAT IS NECESSARY.

>> WHAT IS YOUR ASSESSMENT OF WHAT HAPPENED INCURSION INTO DANISH AIRSPACE?

WE'RE STILL WAITING FOR AN ANSWER.

>> YES.

IT LOOKS VERY SERIOUS.

I WAS ON THE PHONE THIS MORNING WITH THE DANISH PRIME MINISTER, NATO, AND DANISH MILITARY ARE ALSO IN CLOSE CONTACT.

SHE IS ALSO REACHING OUT TO INDIVIDUAL ALLIES.

BUT STILL, IT IS UNCLEAR AT THIS MOMENT WHAT IS BEHIND THIS.

WHO IS BEHIND IT, WHAT IS BEHIND IT, WHAT WAS THE INTENTION.

STILL NOT KNOWN.

SO WE ARE ALL ASSESSING THAT.

>> DOES THAT WORRY YOU?

>> OF COURSE I AM WORRIED.

ON THE OTHER HAND, I KNOW THAT WE HAVE THE BEST PEOPLE IN PLACE.

SO MY WORRIES ARE ALWAYS VERY SHORT-LIVED.

>> THANK YOU, SECRETARY GENERAL.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> NOT AT WAR, BUT NO LONGER AT COMPLETE PEACE.

THOSE ARE THE WORDS OF GERMANY'S DEFENSE MINISTER.

HE ALSO SAID NATO COUNTRIES ARE UNDER HYBRID ATTACK BY RUSSIA IN DISINFORMATION CAMPAIGNS AND NOW ALSO BY DRONES.

SO LET'S SPEAK TO HIS COLLEAGUE, THE COUNTRY'S FOREIGN MINISTER, JOHANN WADEPHUL.

HE IS AT THE UNITED NATIONS.

AND WELCOME TO OUR PROGRAM.

SO COULD I JUST FIRST ASK YOU WHAT IS YOUR REACTION AND GERMANY'S REACTION TO WHAT APPEARS -- TO WHAT IS A SHIFT IN PRESIDENT TRUMP'S VIEW OF THE BALANCE BETWEEN THE RUSSIAN AND UKRAINE POSITION?

HE IS NOW SAYING UKRAINE COULD WIN BACK ITS TERRITORY WITH THE RIGHT SUPPORT.

WHAT DID YOU THINK OF THAT?

>> GOOD AFTERNOON.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

WE VERY MUCH VALUE THE NEW POSITION OF THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT, STAYING ALONGSIDE WITH UKRAINE AND US, THE EUROPEAN PARTNERS OF UKRAINE.

IN OPPOSING CLEARLY THE RUSSIAN POSITION.

PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS INVESTED A LOT OF TIME AND EFFORTS TO BRING PUTIN TO THE NEGOTIATION TABLE, BUT PUTIN REFUSES TO ATTEND THERE.

SO I THINK WE ARE IN A STAGE WHERE PRESIDENT TRUMP IS LOSING HIS PATIENCE, AND THAT SHOULD MAKE PUTIN CLEAR CLEAR THAT HE HAS TO CHANGE HIS MIND AND BE READY FOR NEGOTIATIONS.

SO THERE IS A CLEAR POSITION.

UKRAINE TOOK UP WITH A EUROPEAN PARTNER AND THE UNITED STATES ARE BACKING UKRAINE, ARE FIGHTING FOR FREEDOM, AND ARE OPPOSING RUSSIA WHICH IS VIOLATING INTERNATIONAL LAW AND THAT IS A GOOD PRECONDITION TO END THIS WAR.

>> AND WHAT DO YOU THINK, OR HOW DO YOU ASSESS EUROPE AND NATO'S CAPABILITIES NOW WITH THE UNITED STATES NOT DIRECTLY SENDING WEAPONS, BUT SENDING THEM TO YOU TO BUY TO THEN PASS ON TO UKRAINE?

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR THE AMOUNT YOU'RE ABLE TO AFFORD AND THE SPEED YOU'RE ABLE TO GET THEM TO UKRAINE?

>> LET ME WORK FIRSTLY IN THE LINE, THE ALLIANCE, NATO IS CLOSER TOGETHER THAN EVER BEFORE.

THEY SHOWED THAT TOGETHER STICK TO THE COMMITMENT OF ARTICLE 5.

WE ARE BIGGER THAN BEFORE.

FINLAND AND SWEDEN JOINED US.

SO THAT IS ABSOLUTELY CLEAR.

BUT WE WILL REALLY STAND TOGETHER, AND THAT WE HAVE, OF COURSE, THE FINANCIAL, THE ECONOMIC, AND THE MILITARY POWER TO SUPPORT UKRAINE IN A WAY SO THAT THEY CAN SURVIVE AND THAT THEY REALLY CAN ENCOUNTER THE RUSSIAN AGGRESSION.

OF COURSE, WE WOULD LIKE THAT THE UNITED STATES WOULD DELIVER WEAPONS WITHOUT PURCHASING, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, THE ECONOMIC POWER OF THE EUROPEAN UNION IS BIG ENOUGH THAT WE WERE ABLE TO FINANCE WHAT UKRAINE REALLY NEEDS.

SO IT IS ABSOLUTELY CLEAR.

WE WILL BE WITH UKRAINE AS LONG AS NECESSARY, AND WE WILL DELIVER TO THEM WHAT IS NECESSARY SO THAT THEY ARE MILITARILY ABLE TO DEFEND AND THE TERRITORY AND PERHAPS ALSO TO RECONQUER SOME OF THE TERRITORY, AS THE PRESIDENT HAS SAID.

>> TALKING ABOUT TRYING TO RAMP UP PRESSURE ON PUTIN TO DO WHAT YOU WANT, AND THAT'S BRING HIM TO A NEGOTIATING TABLE.

THERE'S BEEN LOTS OF ISSUES ABOUT WHETHER THERE WILL BE U.S.

SANCTIONS.

THERE HAVE BEEN SECONDARY SANCTIONS.

THERE'S ALSO A BIT OF A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN VARIOUS BIG EUROPEAN POWERS SUCH AS YOURSELF AND FRANCE OVER THE HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF EURO THAT ARE, YOU KNOW, OF RUSSIAN THAT ARE FROZEN THAT SOME ARE SAYING THESE SHOULD GO IMMEDIATELY TO UKRAINE FOR ITS DEFENSE AND ITS REBUILDING.

SO YOU BASICALLY PROPOSE A LEGALLY SOUND PLAN TO TAP INTO THAT MONEY TO SUPPORT UKRAINE, WHILE THE PRESIDENT OF FRANCE SAYS ANY SUCH SCHEME IS A NON-STARTER, BECAUSE SEIZING RUSSIANS' CENTRAL BANK ASSETS WOULD VIOLATE INTERNATIONAL LAW.

CAN YOU HELP US THROUGH WHETHER THIS IS EVER GOING TO HAPPEN?

AND DO YOU -- WELL, WHAT DO YOU THINK OF FRANCE'S OBJECTIONS?

>> THE POINT IS THAT OF COURSE RUSSIA HAS TO PAY FOR THAT AGGRESSION.

THEY STARTED THIS WAR.

THEY DESTROYED A LOT OF TERRITORY OF UKRAINE, AND WE HAVE, OF COURSE, TO MAKE THE -- TAKE THE AGGRESSOR ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHAT THEY DID.

THE WAY WE ARE COMING TO THAT IS NOT CLEAR PER NOW.

WE ARE DISCUSSING IT.

WE ARE LOOKING FOR NEW OPTIONS TO USE THE RUSSIAN ASSETS.

IT'S NOT ABOUT SEIZING THEM, BUT IT'S ABOUT USING THEM.

THIS IS WHAT WE'RE ALREADY DOING PER NOW IN USING THE WINFALL PROFITS.

AND PERHAPS WE SHOULD START A NEW THINKING, BECAUSE IN THE END OF THE DAY, THERE WILL OF COURSE BE NEGOTIATIONS BETWEEN THE TWO COUNTRIES.

BUT IT HAS TO BE CLEAR RUSSIA HAS TO PAY REPARATIONS FOR WHAT THEY DID IN UKRAINE.

THEY DAMAGED A LOT IN THAT VERY COUNTRY, AND IT'S NOT ABOUT US OR UKRAINE TO PAY FOR THAT.

>> OKAY.

CAN I MOVE ON THE ISSUE OF PALESTINE STATEHOOD.

AT THE U.N.

THIS WEEK, THAT IS ALSO WHAT WAS VERY DOMINANT.

MANY OF THE TRADITIONAL ISRAELI ALLIES, G7 NATIONS DID RECOGNIZE PALESTINE AS A STATE AT THE U.N.

AND THEY SAY THAT IT'S TO HELP PUSH THE DIPLOMATIC FORWARD IN ORDER TO TRY TO REALLY PURSUE A DIPLOMATIC TWO-STATE SOLUTION AND AN END TO THIS HISTORIC CONFLICT.

BUT GERMANY DID NOT JOIN ITS EUROPEAN ALLIES OR ITS OTHER ALLIES.

WHY NOT?

WHAT WOULD IT TAKE FOR GERMANY TO RECOGNIZE PALESTINIAN STATE HOOD?

>> GERMANY IS ABSOLUTELY COMMITTED TO THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION, AS WE ALWAYS HAVE BEEN.

WE ARE ALSO COMMITTED TO THE OSLO PROCESS.

AND THAT REQUIRES NEGOTIATIONS BETWEEN ISRAEL AND PALESTINE TO COME TO A TWO-STATE SOLUTION.

THIS IS THE ONLY SOLUTION FOR THE BOTH OF THE NATIONS AND THE COUNTRIES TO LIVE PEACEFULLY IN SECURITY AND IN DIGNITY TOGETHER.

SO THAT IS ABSOLUTELY CLEAR.

FOR US, THIS IS NOT THE DAY OR THE FACE TO RECOGNIZE THE STATE, BUT TO GET THE NEGOTIATIONS STARTED.

THIS IS POSITION, NOT ONLY OF GERMANY, BUT ALSO OF ITALY, OF JAPAN, OF A LOT OF OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD.

BUT, OF COURSE, IT IS VERY TIMELY THAT THESE NEGOTIATIONS SHOULD BEGIN.

THIS IS WHAT WE ARE PLEDGING FOR IN OUR TALKS WITH ISRAEL, BUT ALSO WITH THE PALESTINIAN SIDE.

AND OF COURSE, THE P.A., THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY HAS TO BE REFORMED.

WE NEED A DEMOCRATIC PROCESS IN THAT.

SO THERE IS A LOT OF WORK TO DO, AND WE ARE ALL UNITED IN THE GOAL TO HAVE IN THE END OF THE DAY TWO STATES, A PALESTINIAN ONE AND OF COURSE THE ISRAELI ONE FOR WHICH GERMANY, OF COURSE, IS IN A SPECIAL WAY RESPONSIBLE.

>> LET ME ASK YOU A FINAL QUESTION TO REACT TO PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYING THAT YOU'RE ALL GOING TO HELL IF THERE IS CONTINUED UNTRAMMELLED IMMIGRATION.

AND CLEARLY, IMMIGRATION IS A MAJOR HOT BUTTON ISSUE FOR MANY OF THE FAR-RIGHT GROUPS, INCLUDING IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY, THE AFD.

NOW, I THINK, WHERE WAS IT, LAST WEEK, THE MEMBERS OR EARLIER THIS MONTH, WHITE HOUSE WELCOMED TWO AFD LEADERS FOR A SERIES OF MEETINGS.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO YOUR AMERICAN COUNTERPARTS FOR WELCOMING THESE PEOPLE, WHO AS YOU JUST MENTIONED YOUR HISTORY, YOU KNOW, HAVE VERY POLARIZING AND CONTROVERSIAL VIEWS?

>> YES.

I TRIED TO MAKE THEM AWARE WHO THE AFD IN REALITY IS.

THEY DO -- SOME OF THEM DO REALLY DENY WHAT THE 12 YEARS OF NAZI REGIME REALLY MEANT FOR GERMANY, AND FOR US.

I'M A CHRISTIAN DEMOCRAT.

AND I WOULD SAY FOR MOST OF THE OTHER PARTIES IN THE GERMAN PARLIAMENT, IT IS ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE TO BE IN A COALITION WITH THIS PARTY.

WE'RE DOING EVERYTHING TO PREVENT THEM FROM BECOMING A GOVERNING PARTY IN GERMANY THE FEDERAL STATES AS WELL AS ON THE FEDERAL LEVEL.

SO I CAN ONLY ASK EVERYBODY TO LOOK CLEARLY INTO THIS PARTY WHAT THEY ARE PROMISING, WHAT THEY ARE REFERRING TO, AND THIS IS NOT THE COMMON GROUND WE HAVE BETWEEN OUR COUNTRIES.

THESE ARE NOT VALUES AMERICANS AND EUROPEANS AND GERMANS REALLY SHARE.

>> FOREIGN MINISTER JOHANN WADEPHUL, THANK YOU FOR JOINING ME.

>>> OUR WOUNDS ARE DEEP AND OUR CALAMITY IS GREAT.

THAT WAS FROM THE PALESTINIAN PRESIDENT AS HE ADDRESSED THE U.N.

GENERAL ASSEMBLY TODAY.

DESPITE BEING DENIED A VISA TO THE U.S.

BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

IT'S A STARK CONTRAST TO THE FLURRY OF NATIONS THAT NOW RECOGNIZE PALESTINIAN STATE HOOD, AS WE WERE JUST DISCUSSING, ALONG WITH IRELAND, NORWAY, SPAIN WAS AHEAD OF THE CURVE, RECOGNIZING PALESTINE AS A STATE LAST YEAR.

AS ISRAEL STILL LACKS A POLITICAL PLAN TO END THE WAR IN GAZA.

SPAIN'S PRIME MINISTER, PEDRO SANCHEZ, JOINED ME WITH A PERSPECTIVE ON SEVERAL HOT BUTTON ISSUES, INCLUDING IMMIGRATION, THAT ARE NOT OFTEN HEARD, ESPECIALLY IN AMERICA.

PRIME MINISTER SANCHEZ, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

LET ME ASK YOU, YOU WERE ONE OF THE EARLY RECOGNIZERS OF THE PALESTINIANS AS A STATE, PALESTINIAN STATEHOOD.

HOW HAS IT BEEN GOING?

YOU KNOW THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF BACKLASH FROM THE UNITED STATES, FROM ISRAEL?

>> WELL, THERE IS A LOT MAJORITY OF COUNTRIES WITHIN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF THE U.N.

SUPPORTING TWO-STATE SOLUTION.

NOT ONLY THERE IS A MASS TO STOP THIS WAR, THERE IS A MASS FOR THE ACCESS OF HUMANITARIAN AID INTO GAZA, BUT THERE IS ALSO A MASS FROM POLITICIANS TO GIVE A POLITICAL HORIZON TO THIS CRISIS.

AND THAT MEANS IN MY VIEW THAT WE NEED TO RECOGNIZE INTERNATIONALLY THE STATE OF PALESTINE.

>> CAN I JUST ASK YOU IN TERMS OF PRAGMATIC STEPS, AS A WORLD LEADER, HOW DO YOU SEE THIS GOING?

PRESIDENT MACRON SAID IT'S PART OF A PHASED HOPEFULLY PATH TO A TWO-PART SOLUTION.

WHAT ARE THE FIRST STEPS?

>> THE FIRST STEP, IN MY VIEW, SHOULD BE TO HAVE A PEACE INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE WHERE WE SETTLE THE CONDITIONS FOR THIS PALESTINE STATEHOOD.

ALSO THE RECOGNITION BY SOME ARAB COUNTRIES OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL, AND SEE WHETHER WE CAN FIND A WAY FOR A CO-EXISTENCE, A PEACEFUL AND SECURITY EXISTENCE BETWEEN PALESTINE AND ISRAEL, AND OF COURSE THE MIDDLE EAST.

YOU KNOW, IN MY VIEW, THE BIGGEST MISTAKE THAT THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT IS COMMITTING IS HOW TO FIGHT AGAINST TERRORISM.

OF COURSE THERE IS THE SECURITY DIMENSION OF FIGHTING AGAINST TERRORISM.

BUT THERE OF THE TWO.

FIRST, WHEN YOU FIGHT AGAINST TERRORISM, YOU HAVE TO DO IT WITHIN THE LEGAL FRAMEWORK.

AND THAT IS NOT HAPPENING WHEN IT COMES TO ISRAEL AND WHAT WE ARE WITNESSING IN GAZA AND ALSO IN THE WEST BANK.

AND LAST, BUT NOT LEAST, A POLITICAL SOLUTION, POLITICS.

DIPLOMACY.

AND THAT IS WHY I THINK IT'S SO IMPORTANT WHAT HAPPENED LAST MONDAY WHEN LARGE MAJORITY OF COUNTRIES AND ALSO TWO PERMANENT MEMBERS OF THE SECURITY COUNCIL, FRANCE AND THE UK RECOGNIZED -- >> BECAUSE NOW IT'S FOUR PERMANENT MEMBERS.

>> YEAH.

>> ONLY THE U.S.

DOESN'T.

YOU TALKED ABOUT TERRORISM.

SO I ASSUME YOU'VE SEEN AN OP-ED COLUMN IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES" BY BENNY GANTZ, FORMER TOP POLITICIAN IN ISRAEL.

HE SAID HE SPOKE TO YOU EARLIER IN THE WAR, AND HE SAID YOU DOWNPLAYED THE DANGER ISRAEL FACED, SAYING SPAIN ALSO FACED TERRORISM.

HE SAYS THERE IS NO SYMMETRY BETWEEN THE THREATS BOTH OF YOUR COUNTRIES FACE.

I COVERED THE 2004 TERRORIST ATTACK ON SPAIN AND OTHERS IN EUROPE.

SO I WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOUR VIEW ON THAT CRITICISM IS.

>> NOT ONLY THAT YOU HAVE THIS TERRORISM, WE SUFFERED BASQUE TERRORISM ETA IN SPAIN FOR 40 YEARS.

SO WE KNOW QUITE WELL WHAT IT DOES MEAN TO FIGHT AGAINST TERRORISM.

I THINK A BIG MISTAKE IS TO CALL IT WAR AGAINST TERRORISM, BECAUSE IT'S MORE COMPLEX THAN A WAR.

OF COURSE, AS I SAID BEFORE, THERE IS A SECURITY I MENTIONED OF FIGHTING AGAINST TERRORISM.

BUT THERE IS THE POLITICAL ONE.

THE THING HERE IS HOW DO WE MARGINALIZE HAMAS SUPPORT WITHIN THE PALESTINE SOCIETY.

AND THIS IS NOT HAPPENING TODAY, BECAUSE THERE IS ONLY BOMBING FROM THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT AND WITHOUT ANY KIND OF POLITICAL DIALOGUE, WITH THE MODERATES WITHIN THE PALESTINE SOCIETY, WHICH BY THE WAY EXISTS.

AND YOU KNOW, JUST REMEMBER WHAT PRESIDENT ABBAS SAID BEFORE THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

HE WAS DIRECTLY SPEAKING TO THE ISRAELI PEOPLE SAYING WE WANT PEACE.

WE WANT A PEACEFUL CO-EXISTENCE, AND WE WILL GUARANTEE ALSO THE SECURITY OF ISRAEL.

>> WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE CRITICISM THAT THIS COULD BE A REWARD FOR HAMAS, THAT THEY COULD SEE -- >> NOT AT ALL.

I DON'T SEE IT.

WHO SAY THAT IS PEOPLE THAT THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT -- THE IMPLICATION IS THAT YOU ARE RECOGNIZING A LEVERAGE TO HAMAS THAT IT IS NOT -- IT IS NOT THE CASE.

SO HERE, WHAT WE ARE DOING IS STRENGTHENING ALSO THE MODERATES WITHIN PALESTINE SOCIETY THAT ARE WILLING TO OPEN THE DOORS FOR POLITICS, DIPLOMACY, AND TO FIND A SOLUTION.

THE POINT HERE IS THAT -- I MEAN, LET ME SAY IT IN THIS WAY.

IS ISRAEL TODAY MORE SECURE THAN BEFORE THE TERRORIST ATTACKS?

IS ISRAEL MORE ISOLATED THAN BEFORE THE TERRORIST ATTACKS?

I THINK IT DOES.

IT IS MORE ISOLATED.

IT IS MORE UNSECURE.

AND PERHAPS THIS IS THE PLAN FOR PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU, TO CREATE AN UNSECURITY THREAT WITHIN THE ISRAELI SOCIETY THAT COULD EXPLAIN WHAT HE'S DOING REGARDING NOT ONLY GAZA, BUT ALSO THE OCCUPATION OF THE WEST END.

AND THIS IS SOMETHING WE CANNOT ACCEPT AT INTERNATIONAL LEVEL.

AND AS, YOU KNOW, EUROPEAN LEADER, EUROPEAN PRIME MINISTER, I CAN TELL YOU I'M QUITE CONCERNED ABOUT THE IMPLICATION WHEN IT COMES TO THE GLOBAL SOUTH, BECAUSE THERE ARE MORE AND MORE COUNTRIES SAYING, LOOK, EUROPEANS, YOU ASK US AND WE AGREED UPON FOR SUPPORTING UKRAINE, BUT YOU'RE COMMITTING DOUBLE STANDARDS WHEN IT COMES TO WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND PALESTINE.

>> LET ME MOVE ON THE YOUR REACTION.

YOU WERE IN THE CHAMBER WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP SPOKE ON DAY ONE.

HE ESSENTIALLY TOOK ON IMMIGRATION AND CLIMATE CHANGE, AND HE CALLED -- HE SAID YOUR NATIONS ARE GOING TO HELL THOSE WHO BRING IN IMMIGRANTS.

>> THIS IS NOT OF SPAIN, IT'S A CONTROVERSY.

I THINK IT'S WELL-KNOWN THAT WE HAVE DIFFERENT VIEWS WHEN IT COMES TO CLIMATE CHANGE AND MIGRATION.

FIRST OF ALL, MIGRATION, WE ARE DEFINITELY, MAKE NO MISTAKE WITH THAT, WE ARE DEFINITELY AGAINST THE SMUGGLERS, AND WE'RE COMBATTING AND FIGHTING AGAINST ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.

BUT DURING THE LAST SEVEN YEARS IN SPAIN, WE RECEIVED TWO MILLION MIGRANTS, AND AT THE SAME TIME, WE HAVE REDUCED THE UNEMPLOYMENT RATE BY 40%.

AND WE ARE NOW, YOU KNOW, GROWING.

LAST YEAR 3.5%.

THIS YEAR 2.7%.

SO WE ARE REPRESENTING MORE OR LESS 30% OF THE TOTAL ECONOMIC GROWTH OF THE EUROPEAN UNION.

AND THIS IS ALSO THANK YOU OF, YOU KNOW, THIS CONTRIBUTION REGULAR MIGRATION TO THE ECONOMIC SITUATION OF SPAIN.

AND WHEN IT COMES TO THE ECOLOGICAL TRANSITION, THE GREEN TRANSITION, THE SPANISH EXPERIENCE SHOWS THAT WHEN YOU -- WHEN YOU HAVE MORE RENEWABLE SOURCES IN YOUR ENERGY MIX, YOU ARE CAPABLE TO DROP THE ELECTRICITY PRICES.

IN THE CASES OF SPAIN, SINCE 2017, WE HAVE DROPPED THE ELECTRICITY PRICES BY 50%.

>> OH.

>> 50%, 5-0.

>> SO WHEN YOU SAY THESE RESULTS -- >> SO THESE ARE FACTS.

>> RIGHT.

SO NOT MANY GOVERNMENTS OR NOT MANY PEOPLE ACCEPT THESE FACTS, PARTICULARLY ON MIGRANTS.

YOU KNOW IT'S BECOME A HOT BUTTON POLITICAL ISSUE.

IT'S POWERING THE FAR RIGHT, AND THERE IS LOTS OF THREATS TO YOUR GOVERNMENT BY -- HOW SHOULD GOVERNMENTS LIKE YOURS WHO DO HAVE SUCCESS STORIES ACTUALLY TELL THE PEOPLE ABOUT THEM?

>> FIRST OF ALL, SHOWING THAT WE ARE COMMITTED AGAINST IN THE FIGHT AGAINST IRREGULAR MIGRATION.

AND WE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DROP BY 30% COMPARED TO LAST YEAR IRREGULAR MIGRATION FLOWS TO SPAIN.

SECOND, I THINK WE ALSO NEED TO SHOW OUR CITIZENS THAT WE IN THE WESTERN SOCIETIES, WE'RE FACING A DEMOGRAPHIC WINTER, WHICH MEANS THAT WE'RE GETTING MORE AND MORE OLD, OLDER SOCIETIES.

AND IF WE NEED TO KEEP THE ECONOMIC MOMENT, WE NEED TO DO TWO THINGS.

FIRST OF ALL, WE NEED TO IMPLEMENT FAMILY POLICIES TO INCREASE BIRTH RATE IN OUR COUNTRIES.

>> BIRTH RATE.

>> AND SECOND, HOW DO WE INCORPORATE MIGRANTS IN ORDER TO HAVE THE LABOR FORCE CAPABLE TO KEEP THE ECONOMIC GROWTH AND THEREFORE THE WELFARE STATE, WHICH IS ONE OF THE TREASURES THAT WE HAVE IN SPAIN AND ACROSS EUROPE.

>> VERY QUICKLY, YOU HAVE ALSO STOOD UP AGAINST PRESIDENT TRUMP'S DEMANDS FOR 5% OF GDP FOR NATO.

WHY?

>> BECAUSE WHEN WE SPEAK ABOUT ALLIANCE, IT IS TARGETS, FIRST OF ALL, TO DEFINE WHAT OTHER COMMON THREATS THAT WE FACE WITHIN NATO.

CLEARLY WE HAVE ONE, WHICH IS RUSSIA.

IT'S IMPERIALISM POLICY FOR PUTIN.

AND SECOND, TELL THE ALLIANCE WHAT ARE THE CAPABILITIES THAT YOU NEED TO PUT IN PLACE IN ORDER TO FACE THOSE COMMON CHALLENGES.

SO THIS IS NOT A QUESTION OF FIGURES.

IT IS A QUESTION OF CAPABILITIES.

AND BY THE WAY, MY GOVERNMENT, BECAUSE I'VE BEEN IN OFFICE SINCE 2018, WE HAVE INCREASED DRAMATICALLY.

WE RECEIVED IN THE PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATION WAS 30.9% OF OUR GDP WHEN IT COMES TO DEFENSE EXPENDITURE, AND NOWADAYS IT'S 2%.

>> I WANT TO GO BACK TO YOUR POSITION ON ISRAEL AND GAZA AND WHAT THE SOLUTION.

ISRAELI MEDIA IS REPORTING THAT ON PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU'S JOURNEY HERE TO NEW YORK TODAY, HIS FLIGHT HAS AVOIDED EUROPEAN AIRSPACE, INCLUDING SPAIN'S.

DID YOU KNOW THIS?

WHAT'S YOUR REACTION?

>> I DIDN'T KNOW THAT.

LET'S SAY BECAUSE -- I MET PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU TWO MONTHS -- TWO MONTHS LATER OF THIS HORRIBLE TERRORISM ATTACKS PERPETRATED BY HAMAS.

I WAS WITH THE PEOPLE.

AND I CAN TELL YOU THE SPANISH SOCIETY, THE SPANISH GOVERNMENT, OF COURSE MYSELF, WE ARE COMMITTED WITH ISRAEL.

WE WANT THE BEST FUTURE FOR ISRAEL.

BUT WHAT PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU IS DOING IS THE OPPOSITE, IS CREATING MORE UNSTABLE MIDDLE EAST AND POLITICAL SITUATION.

IT IS CREATING, YOU KNOW, THE SEEDS FOR POTENTIAL TERRORISM IN THE FUTURE, IN THE MIDDLE EAST, AND ALSO IN THAT PART OF THE MIDDLE EAST.

AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE FOR THE REGION, FOR HIS SOCIETY, AND ALSO FOR US.

YOU KNOW, WE BELONG TO A MEDITERRANEAN COUNTRY, SPAIN, WITH MANY OTHERS.

AND THE SITUATION THAT WE'RE FACING FOR THE NEXT DECADES IS A MIDDLE EAST MORE UNSTABLE.

AND THIS IS SOMETHING OF COURSE GEOPOLITICALLY AFFECTS SPAIN AND THE SOUTHERN FLANK OF EUROPE.

SO THAT IS WHY I'M ASKING EUROPEANS TO BE MORE ENGAGED AND COMMITTED WITH THE SITUATION, AS WELL AS WE DO WHEN IT COMES TO UKRAINE.

>> THERE IS A DIFFICULT SITUATION BUILDING ON WITH THE FLOTILLA THAT'S COMING TOWARDS GAZA.

THEY'RE TRYING WITH HUMANITARIAN SUPPLIES.

YOUR COUNTRY, AND I BELIEVE ITALY IS SENDING MILITARY ASSETS TO TRY TO PROTECT IT AGAINST ANY ATTACK FROM ISRAEL.

>> LET'S HOPE NOT.

ALSO TO RESCUE THEM, IN CASE THE ISRAELI FORCES ATTACK THE FLOAT -- FLOTILLA, WHICH BY THE WAY ARE REPRESENTATIVES OF 45 MEMBER COUNTRIES.

ALSO POLITICIANS AND PIECES OF DIFFERENT NATIONAL PARLIAMENTS.

SO LET'S HOPE THAT THEY CAN PROVIDE THIS HUMANITARIAN AID, AND OF COURSE SOMETHING -- I MEAN, LET'S HOPE THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN, ANYTHING TO THESE PEOPLE.

AND OF COURSE WE WILL PROVIDE THAT SAFEGUARD JUST IN CASE THEY SUFFERED ANY ATTACK.

>> I MEAN, COULD IT BECOME A CONFRONTATION BETWEEN YOU AND ISRAELI FORCES?

>> NO, NO, NO.

WHAT WE DO IS JUST TO RESCUE, YOU KNOW, THE MEMBERS OF THE FLOTILLA, TO SUPERVISE THAT SAFETY.

>> PRIME MINISTER SANCHEZ, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> IT'S ALWAYS A PLEASURE.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>>> AND NOW THE MATTER OF WEAPONIZING THE AMERICAN JUSTICE SYSTEM.

PRESIDENT TRUMP IS ESCALATING HIS PRESSURE ON THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT TO GO AFTER HIS POLITICAL OPPONENTS.

AND INSIDE THE DOJ, CAREER PROSECUTORS ARE REELING FROM OUSTERS' RESIGNATIONS, AND RELENTLESS INTERFERENCE THEY SAY FROM THE WHITE HOUSE.

MICHEL MARTIN SPOKE WITH FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR BRENDAN BALLOU TOE DISCUSS HOW FAR THIS CAMPAIGN COULD GO.

AND A NOTE.

THEIR CONVERSATION TOOK PLACE JUST BEFORE REPORTS THAT PROSECUTORS IN VIRGINIA ARE MOVING TO INDICT THE FORMER FBI DIRECTOR JAMES COMEY WHO TRUMP CONSIDERS HIS ENEMY.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

BRENDAN BALLOU, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ONCE AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU.

>> JUST TO REMIND, YOU ARE A FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR.

YOU ACTUALLY PROSECUTED CASES FROM THE JANUARY 6th ATTACK.

IT'S ONE OF THE REASONS YOU LEFT GOVERNMENT, BECAUSE OF THE WAY THINGS HAVE TRANSPIRED SINCE.

A NUMBER OF PEOPLE, ANALYSTS, PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF, PEOPLE WHO UNDERSTAND HOW THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE HAS WORKED, IS SUPPOSED TO WORK, ARE CALLING THIS AN EXTRAORDINARY MOMENT.

WHY ARE THEY SAYING THAT?

>> WELL, WE'RE WATCHING THE INCREASINGLY POLITICAL NATURE OF THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AND THE COLLAPSE IN CREDIBILITY IN THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.

YOU KNOW, THE DOJ IS UNLIKE OTHER AGENCIES.

IT'S NOT LIKE NASA THAT HAS SPACESHIPS OR THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE THAT HAS TANKS.

THE ONLY THING THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HAS IS ITS CREDIBILITY.

AND TO SEE SO MANY ATTACKS ON THAT CREDIBILITY SO QUICKLY, IT'S EXTRAORDINARY.

AND I WORRY THAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT THAT I KNEW MAY NO LONGER EXIST, OR WON'T EXIST VERY SOON.

>> DID YOU THINK IT WOULD BE DIFFERENT?

PEOPLE MIGHT REMEMBER THAT THE PRESIDENT INITIALLY, PRESIDENT TRUMP INITIALLY NOMINATED A CONGRESSMAN, MATT GAETZ, TO BE HEAD OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.

IT BECAME CLEAR THAT HE COULD NOT WIN CONFIRMATION.

THE CURRENT ATTORNEY GENERAL PAM BONDI IS A PROSECUTOR OF EXPERIENCE.

DID YOU THINK IT WOULD BE DIFFERENT?

>> MAYBE I WAS BEING OVERLY OPTIMISTIC, OR NAIVE.

BUT I THOUGHT THERE WOULD BE AT LEAST TWO LIMITS ON THIS PRESIDENT'S INTERVENTION IN THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.

THE FIRST RELATED TO JANUARY 6th, WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, AS SOON AS DONALD TRUMP GOT RE-ELECTED AS PRESIDENT, I ASSUMED THAT SOME PORTION OF THE RIOTERS WOULD GET PARDONED.

BUT DONALD TRUMP CAMPAIGNED ON A PRO-COP AGENDA.

AND I ASSUMED THAT THAT AGENDA WOULD LIMIT HIS DECISION TO PARDON, FOR INSTANCE, IOT ERS THAT ATTACKED POLICE OFFICERS.

I THOUGHT THAT WOULD BE ONE WAY THAT TRUMP WOULD BE INSULATED OR CONTAINED.

THE OTHER WAY IS PURELY OUT OF SELF-INTEREST.

WHICH IS THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE ONLY WORKS IF IT'S ABLE TO CONVINCE JUDGES AND JURIES TO AGREE WITH IT.

AND WHEN DOJ BECOMES INCREASINGLY POLITICAL, OR APPEARS TO BECOME INCREASINGLY POLITICAL, HE'LL LOSE THAT ABILITY TO PERSUADE.

AT SOME LEVEL, I THOUGHT THE WHITE HOUSE WOULD WANT TO KEEP SOME DISTANCE FROM DOJ SOLELY SO THAT IT COULD BE MORE EFFECTIVE.

BUT OBVIOUSLY, THAT'S NOT THE CASE.

>> WHAT ARE THE SORT OF DATA POINTS THAT LEAD YOU TO THAT CONCLUSION?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, YOU LOOK AT THE APPOINTMENT OF OBVIOUSLY UNQUALIFIED U.S.

ATTORNEYS TO VARIOUS POSITIONS IN THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA, IN NEW JERSEY.

PEOPLE PEOPLE HAVE LITERALLY NO PROSECUTORIAL EXPERIENCE, BUT BECAUSE OF THEIR PERSONAL CONNECTS TO THE PRESIDENT, THEY'RE GETTING THESE INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT JOBS.

YOU SEE IT IN THE FACT THAT CERTAIN SIGNS OF CRIMES SIMPLY AREN'T BEING PURSUED ANYMORE.

WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT FOREIGN BRIBERY, WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ACTING AS AN AGENT OF A FOREIGN POWER, WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT BEING A RUSSIAN KLEPTOCRAT.

THESE WERE THINGS THAT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE USED TO PROSECUTE.

NO LONGER.

AND I THINK YOU SEE IT IN THE FACT THAT THE PRESIDENT IS EX-LITERALLY CALLING OUT THAT HE PLANS TO, OR WANTS TO PROSECUTE HIS POLITICAL ENEMIES.

>> SO THERE ARE TWO THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN IN THE NEWS.

THE FIRST WAS YOU ALLUDED TO THIS, U.S.

ATTORNEY ERIC SEVERT IN VIRGINIA REFUSED TO BRING CHARGES AGAINST LETITIA JAMES, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OF NEW YORK STATE AND JAMES COMEY, THE FORMER FBI DIRECTOR.

SIEBERT RESIGNED.

HE WAS CLEARLY PRESSURED TO RESIGN BECAUSE HE COULDN'T FIND A REASON TO BRING CHARGES AGAINST LETITIA JAMES.

AND SO THEN THIS WEEKEND, PRESIDENT TRUMP POSTED ON HIS SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORM DIRECTLY ADDRESSING THE ATTORNEY GENERAL, PAM BONDI, SAYING, QUOTE, NOTHING IS BEING DONE.

WHAT ABOUT COMEY, ADAM SHIFTY SCHIFF IS THE CONCERN SENATOR FROM CALIFORNIA, LETITIA.

THEY'RE ALL GUILTY AS HELL, BUT NOTHING IS GOING TO BE DONE.

NO, I FIRED HIM AND THERE IS A GREAT CASE.

AND WE CAN'T DELAY ANY LONGER.

JUSTICE MUST BE SERVED NOW, IN ALL CAPS WITH MULTIPLE SORT OF EXCLAMATION MARKS.

SO, GOSH, HOW UNUSUAL IS IT FOR A PRESIDENT TO BE TALKING ABOUT DEMANDING PROSECUTIONS OF SPECIFIC INDIVIDUALS?

>> IT SEEMS ENTIRELY UNPRECEDENTED.

I'VE CERTAINLY NEVER HEARD OF IT.

I'VE NEVER HEARD OF ANYBODY WHOA HAS HEARD OF IT.

AT ONE LEVEL, IT'S INCREDIBLY HEARTBREAKING TO SEE A POST LIKE THAT, TO SEE THE PRESIDENT EXPLICITLY TRY TO USE THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AS A WEAPON AGAINST HIS POLITICAL FOES.

A LITTLE BIT MORE TACTICALLY, I THINK IF YOU ARE THE DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR TISH JAMES OR ADAM SCHIFF OR JAMES COMEY, A POST LIKE THAT IS INCREDIBLY HELPFUL TO YOUR FUTURE DEFENSE.

ONE THING THAT DEFENDANTS WILL OFTEN TRY TO BLAME IS A THING OF SELECTIVE PROSECUTION, THIS IDEA THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS PROSECUTING YOU UNFAIRLY FOR AN IMPERMISSIBLE PURPOSE.

NOW THE CHALLENGE WITH THOSE SORTS OF CLAIMS TYPICALLY IS IT'S VERY HARD TO SHOW THE GOVERNMENT'S INTENT.

WELL HERE, THE GOVERNMENT JUST REVEALED THE GOVERNMENT'S INTENT.

SO IF THE PRESIDENT'S GOAL IS TO SUCCESSFULLY PROSECUTE HIS POLITICAL ENEMIES, I THINK HE MADE THAT PROJECT HARDER FOR HIMSELF.

>> WELL, THE OTHER THING IS YOU MENTIONED DEFENDANTS.

HE SAYS THAT THEY'RE ALL GUILTY AS HELL, BUT HE DOESN'T SAY OF WHAT.

>> EXACTLY.

I MEAN, IT'S A DEFENDANT IN SEARCH OF A CRIME.

YOU KNOW, IT SEEMS CLEAR THAT HE WANTS THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE TO BE AN ARM OF A LARGER PROJECT OF RETRIBUTION.

YOU KNOW, I THINK THE ONE GOOD SIGN HERE IS YOU LOOK AT HOW GRAND JURIES ARE RESPONDING TO THESE SORTS OF THREATS.

YOU KNOW, THERE IS THE OLD SAW ABOUT THAT A PROSECUTOR CAN INDICT A HAM SANDWICH.

WELL, AT THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, THE U.S.

ATTORNEY IS REALLY STRUGGLING TO INDICT HAM SANDWICHES.

A PERHAPS UNPRECEDENTED SET OF CASES HAS FAILED TO SECURE INDICTMENTS REPEATEDLY.

SO I THINK THAT THESE SORTS OF POSTS ARE BOTH GOING TO HELP DEFENSE ATTORNEYS, BUT THEY'RE ALSO GOING TO MAKE GRAND JURIES MORE SKEPTICAL AND MAKE IT HARDER FOR THIS ADMINISTRATION TO SECURE INDICTMENTS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

THERE HAVE BEEN A NUMBER OF CASES NOW WHERE THE GRAND JURY IN D.C.

HAS REFUSED TO INDICT PROPOSED CASES THAT U.S.

ATTORNEY JEANINE PIRRO HAS BROUGHT.

WHAT I THINK THIS SUGGESTS IS THAT AT LEAST IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE IS RAPIDLY EVISCERATING ITS OWN CREDIBILITY AND STRUGGLING TO PERSUADE GRAND JURIES TO INDICT.

I THINK IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE WITH MORE POSTS LIKE THIS FROM THE PRESIDENT, WITH MORE PROPOSED POLITICAL PROSECUTIONS WHETHER OTHER JURISDICTIONS START DOING THE SAME THING.

>> BUT I HAVE TO ASK YOU WHETHER THE PURPOSE OF THESE KINDS OF STATEMENTS, INVESTIGATIONS, EVEN PROSECUTIONS, SHOULD THEY OCCUR, IS IT REALLY TO GET CONVICTIONS?

OR IT IS REALLY MORE TO MAKE PEOPLE'S LIVES UNCOMFORTABLE, UNPLEASANT?

IT CAN COST HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS TO DEFEND YOURSELF IN A CASE, ESPECIALLY A HIGH PROFILE CASE WITH A FULL WEIGHT OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS BEING BROUGHT TO BEAR, OKAY.

SO I HAVE TO WONDER DO YOU REALLY THINK CONVICTIONS ARE THE POINT, OR IS IT JUST TO MAKE PEOPLE'S LIVES HELL?

>> YOU KNOW, I CAN'T PREDICT WHAT THE PRESIDENT THINKS INTERNALLY, BUT IT CERTAINLY SEEMS LIKE HE WANTS TO PROSECUTE THESE PEOPLE.

HE WANTS TO IMPRISON THEM.

HE EXPLICITLY SAYS HE IS TRYING TO GET REVENGE FOR THE FACT THAT HE WAS PROSECUTED.

I COMPLETELY AGREE THAT SIMPLY BEING INVESTIGATED, SIMPLY BEING INDICTED IS INCREDIBLY STRESSFUL, AND IT'S INCREDIBLY EXPENSIVE DEFENDING YOURSELF, EVEN IF YOU AREN'T CONVICTED, EVEN IF YOU DON'T GO TO JAIL OR PRISON.

THAT SAID, EVERY TIME THIS ADMINISTRATION BRINGS AN UNSUCCESSFUL CASE, IT LOSES MORE CREDITABILITY AND MAKES IT HARDER FOR IT TO PURSUE POLITICAL PROSECUTIONS IN THE FUTURE.

SO THIS IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE WHERE I THINK THIS ADMINISTRATION MIGHT BE UNDERMINING ITS OWN OBJECTIVES.

>> YOU MADE THE POINT ABOUT PEOPLE TAKING POSITIONS IN THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT FOR WHICH THEY ARE NOT QUALIFIED, BUT IT IS ALSO THE CASE, OR AT LEAST DON'T HAVE ANY PRIOR EXPERIENCE, BUT IT'S ALSO THE CASE THAT THERE ARE LAWYERS LEAVING WHO HAVE SPECIFIC CREDENTIALS.

TO THAT END, THE PUBLIC INTEGRITY SECTION, WHICH WAS TASKED WITH PROSECUTING CORRUPTION HAS REPORTEDLY REDUCED FROM MORE THAN 30 ATTORNEYS TO JUST TWO.

AND I WONDER WHAT THAT SAYS TO YOU ABOUT THE KINDS OF CRIMES THAT WILL BE PROSECUTED OR EVEN INVESTIGATED.

>> I THINK THE NEWS THAT THE PUBLIC INTEGRITY SECTION OF JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IS DOWN THE JUST TWO ATTORNEYS SHOWS THAT CERTAIN KINDS OF CRIMES AND CERTAIN KINDS OF CRIMINALS ARE BEYOND THE REACH OF THE LAW IN THIS ADMINISTRATION.

I WILL ADD THAT, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT AN EXODUS OF EXPERIENCE FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, ONE OF THE QUESTIONS THAT I THINK EVERY ATTORNEY AND GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO ASK THEMSELVES RIGHT NOW, EVERY EMPLOYEE IN GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO ASK THEMSELVES RIGHT NOW IS WHETHER THEY CAN BE MORE EFFECTIVE BY TAYING OR LEAVING.

I THINK THERE IS ALSO BY STAYING IN THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE OR STAYING IN GOVERNMENT, YOU CAN STOP THE WORST IMPULSES OF SOME OF THESE POLITICAL ACTORS.

BUT IN A WORLD WHERE THIS ADMINISTRATION IS SIMPLY GOING TO FIRE THOSE WHO DISAGREE WITH THEM, ARGUABLY, BY STAYING IN GOVERNMENT, YOU'RE SIMPLY ADDING YOUR OWN CREDIBILITY INADVERTENTLY TO THESE HIGHLY POLITICAL ACTIONS.

AND SO IT'S A VERY TOUGH DECISION.

BUT I THINK EVERYBODY IN GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO BE ASKING THEMSELVES HOW CAN THEY BE MOST EFFECTIVE IN MAINTAINING THE WORK, THE DIGNITY, AND THE REPUTATION OF THE GOVERNMENT THEY WORK FOR.

>> YOU'VE SAID THAT THIS IS, QUOTE, A GREAT TIME TO BE A RICH CRIMINAL.

WHAT DID YOU MEAN BY THAT?

>> WELL, IT GOES BACK TO WHAT THIS ADMINISTRATION IS CHOOSING TO PROSECUTE, AND WHAT THIS ADMINISTRATION IS CHOOSING NOT TO PROSECUTE.

IT IS CHOOSING NOT TO PROSECUTE PEOPLE THAT MAY HAVE COMMITTED CRIMES UNDER THE FOREIGN CORRUPT PRACTICES ACT, WHICH PROHIBITS FOREIGN BRIBERY, UNDER THE FOREIGN AGENTS REGISTRATION ACT, WHICH PROHIBITS ACTING AS AN UNREGISTERED AGENT OF A FOREIGN POWER.

IT'S DISBANDED THE KLEPTO CAPTURE TASK FORCE THAT WAS MEANT TO GO AFTER RUSSIAN OLIGARCHS.

SO IN ALL THESE DIFFERENT WAYS, IF YOU ARE A RICH CRIMINAL IN AMERICA, IT IS A FABULOUS TIME TO BE WORKING RIGHT NOW.

>> DO YOU THINK THE PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THE CONSEQUENCES OF THIS, TOREL VENICE OF THIS, TO THEIR OWN LIVES?

AND IF NOT, WHO'S GOING TO MAKE THAT CASE TO THEM?

>> MAYBE I'M BEING OVERLY OPTIMISTIC HERE, BUT THE SIGNS FROM THE GRAND JURY IN D.C., THE FACT THAT THE D.C.

U.S.

ATTORNEY IS STRUGGLING TO SECURE ALL THESE INDICTMENTS IS ONE PIECE OF EVIDENCE THAT PEOPLE WHO AREN'T PARTICULARLY ENGAGED IN POLITICS, YOU KNOW, GRAND JURORS ARE RARELY LAWYERS.

THEY'RE REGULAR FOLKS THAT EXIST IN THE DISTRICT, THAT THEY ARE SIGHING HOW SEEMINGLY CORRUPT OR MISGUIDED THESE PROSECUTIONS ARE.

I THINK IT IS REALLY ENCOURAGING.

IN A TIME WHEN SO MANY GUARDRAILS THAT WE EXPECTED TO CONSTRAIN THIS PRESIDENT HAVE COMPLETELY FALLEN OFF, WHETHER IT'S THE SUPREME COURT, WHETHER IT'S CONGRESS, WHETHER IT'S CORPORATE AMERICA, THE FACT THAT YOU'RE SEEING ORDINARY CITIZENS RESIST THIS I THINK IS DEEPLY ENCOURAGING.

AND IT SUGGESTS THAT MAYBE THE TOOLS THAT WE THOUGHT WERE GOING TO BE EFFECTIVE IN FIGHTING AGAINST CORRUPTION AND FIGHTING AGAINST ILLIBERALISM AREN'T GOING TO WORK, BUT OTHER TOOLS AND OTHER PEOPLE MIGHT SUCCEED.

>> IS IT POSSIBLE THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE LOOK AT THIS AND THINK WELL, THAT'S JUST THE WAY IT ALWAYS WORKED?

IT'S JUST MORE OBVIOUS NOW, THAT RICH PEOPLE, WELL CONNECTED PEOPLE, THERE WAS ONE SET OF RULES FOR THEM, AND THAT OTHER PEOPLE HAD DIFFERENT SETS OF RULES.

IT IS POSSIBLE THAT MANY PEOPLE THINK THAT'S JUST THE WAY IT'S ALWAYS BEEN, AND THIS IS JUST MORE OBVIOUS NOW?

I DON'T KNOW.

>> I CAN'T SPEAK TO PUBLIC POLLING DATA ON THIS AND WHAT PEOPLE GENERALLY FEEL ABOUT THE CURRENT WAY THAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IS BEING USED TO GO AFTER POLITICAL ENEMIES AND SHIELD POLITICAL FRIENDS.

AND I THINK THERE IS AN ARGUMENT TO BE MADE THAT CORRUPTION IS AN UNFORTUNATE PART OF AMERICAN HISTORY.

SO I CAN'T SPEAK TO WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS A CHANGE HERE OR A FEELING THAT THINGS ARE TRULY DIFFERENT.

BUT, AGAIN, THIS IS MAYBE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR HOPE, WHICH IS IF THIS IS A CONTINUATION OF PAST CORRUPTION, IT'S A OCCURRING ON SUCH A VASTLY LARGER SCALE, IT'S HARD FOR PEOPLE TO IGNORE.

WHEN IT'S HARD FOR PEOPLE TO IGNORE, MAYBE THEY'LL STAND UP AND RESIST IT.

AT SOME LEVEL THIS MIGHT BE AN OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE STRUCTURAL BIG CHANGES.

>> WHY SHOULD PEOPLE CARE ABOUT THIS?

A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK THIS ISN'T GOING TO AFFECT ME.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO SOMEBODY WHO FELT THAT WAY?

>> A COUPLE THINGS.

SO ONE, EVEN IF YOU AREN'T PARTICULARLY POLITICAL, EVEN IF YOU AREN'T BREAKING THE LAW, HOW THE GOVERNMENT TREATS PEOPLE, HOW IT TREATS BOTH POLITICAL FRIENDS AND ENEMIES MATTERS ENORMOUSLY, BECAUSE DUE PROCESS AND CIVIL RIGHTS EITHER APPLY TO EVERYONE, OR THEY APPLY TO NO ONE.

BECAUSE IF CERTAIN PEOPLE ARE ACCEPTED FROM DUE PROCESS, IT MEANS THAT THE PRESIDENT IS GOING TO BE THE ONE WHO DECIDES WHO GETS RIGHTS AND WHO GETS TREATED FAIRLY.

AND WE DON'T WANT THAT.

THAT'S THE FIRST THING.

THE SECOND THING IS WE ARE ALREADY STARTING TO SEE THIS CORRUPTION INFECTING SO MANY PARTS OF EVERY AMERICANS' LIFE.

YOU'RE WATCHING THE JIMMY KIMMEL DRAMA UNFOLD RIGHT NOW.

A LOT OF PEOPLE WATCH JIMMY KIMMEL.

YOU'RE WATCHING THIS HAPPEN IN CERTAIN FAVORED INDUSTRIES GET PROTECTION WHEN YOU HAVE CRYPTO SCAMMERS PAYING $5 MILLION TO GET THEIR INVESTIGATION BY THE GOVERNMENT DROPPED.

WHEN YOU'RE SEEING BANKS PAY A MILLION DOLLARS TO GET THEIR CONSENT DECREES LIFTED.

THIS KIND OF CORRUPTION AFFECTS EVERY PERSON AND AFFECTS THEM EVERY DAY.

>> HOW ARE YOU, I DON'T KNOW, THINKING ABOUT ALL THIS?

YOU -- YOU TOOK AN OATH, RIGHT?

YOU PASSED THE BAR.

YOU TOOK AN OATH TO UPHOLD THE STANDARDS OF YOUR PROFESSION.

YOU WENT TO THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.

YOU TOOK AN OATH TO UPHOLD THE CONSTITUTION.

AND THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO THOUGHT THEY WERE DOING JUSTICE.

AND I'M JUST WONDERING HOW ARE YOU THINKING ABOUT THIS.

YOU MENTIONED SEVERAL TIMES A SORT OF SENSE OF OPTIMISM.

I'M JUST CURIOUS WHERE THAT COMES FROM.

>> WELL, TWO THINGS.

ONE, HOW AM I FEELING, HOW ARE MY COLLEAGUES FEELING?

I CAN'T SPEAK FOR EVERYBODY, BUT IT IS INCREDIBLY DISHEARTENING TO WATCH THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT BE ABUSED IN THIS WAY AND BE USED AS A POLITICAL TOOL.

IT'S CERTAINLY THE CASE THAT THERE ARE INSTANCES OF CORRUPTION IN THE PAST FROM BOTH PARTIES, FROM WATERGATE TO, YOU KNOW, LYNDON JOHNSON AND BEYOND.

THIS IS QUALITATIVELY DIFFERENT.

YOU DON'T HAVE A HISTORY OF A PRESIDENT PARDONING RIOTERS WHO ATTACK POLICE BECAUSE THEY SUPPORT HIM POLITICALLY.

YOU DON'T HAVE INSTANCES OF ALLEGATIONS OF PEOPLE ACCEPTING LITERAL CASH IN PAPER BAGS AND THEN STAYING IN OFFICE.

YOU DON'T HAVE EXAMPLES OF A PRESIDENT WITH BUSINESS DEALINGS WHERE FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS WORK WITH THEM OR GIVE THEM LITERALLY JETS IN ORDER TO GET FAVORED FOREIGN POLICY.

SO WE'RE SEEING THINGS THAT ARE QUALITATIVELY DIFFERENT AND ON A MASSIVE SCALE.

IN TERMS OF MY OPTIMISM, WHAT I THINK IS BECAUSE THIS CORRUPTION IS HAPPENING ON SUCH A MASSIVE SCALE, IT IS INCREASINGLY HARD FOR ANYBODY TO IGNORE.

AND IN A WORLD WHERE THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE IS NOT INTERESTED IN PROSECUTING CORRUPTION AND TRYING TO BUILD A FAIR DEMOCRACY, I THINK OTHER INSTITUTIONS ARE GOING TO STEP UP.

YOU KNOW, IF DOJ IS NOT INTERESTED IN PROSECUTING CRYPTO SCAMMERS WHO PAY TO GET THEIR INVESTIGATIONS DROPPED, WELL, COMPETITORS OR CONSUMERS WHO ARE HARMED BY THAT BEHAVIOR CAN SUE IN STATE AND FEDERAL COURT TO TRY TO GET JUSTICE.

AND SO, AGAIN, I HAVE A SENSE OF OPTIMISM HERE BECAUSE I THINK THAT PEOPLE ARE INCREASINGLY ENGAGED, AND I THINK THAT ENGAGED PEOPLE HAVE A LOT OF TOOLS TO TAKE ACTION HERE.

>> BRENDAN BALLOU, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, ON A WEEK WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP BLASTS SCIENCE AND GREEN ENERGY, A SCIENCE ICON TAKES HIS PLACE IN THE CONSTELLATION OF HOLLYWOOD GREATS.

EMMY-WINNING TV HOST AND EDUCATOR BILL NYE, KNOWN BY MANY AS THE SCIENCE GUY, HAS BEEN HONORED WITH A STAR ON THE WALK OF FAME, MARKING A LIFETIME OF INSPIRING MINDS ACROSS THE GLOBE AND TEACHING US ALL SORTS OF KNOWLEDGE ALONG THE WAY, FROM UNDERSTANDING THE SMALLEST MOLECULES TO TACKLING LIFE'S BIGGEST QUESTIONS.

BACK IN 2017, HE TOLD ME HIS THOUGHTS ON THE CLIMATE CRISIS AND WHY COMING TOGETHER AT A TIME OF DIVIDE IS CRUCIAL FOR SEEING PROGRESS.

>> THE SOONER WE ALL START WORKING TOGETHER, THE BETTER.

INSTEAD OF HAVING CONFLICT OVER THIS, LET'S GET TO WORK.

THERE ARE THREE THINGS WE WANT FOR EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD.

WE WANT CLEAN WATER, WE WANT RENEWABLY PRODUCED AND RELIABLE ELECTRICITY, AND ACCESS TO THE INTERNET.

IF WE CAN PROVIDE THAT TO EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD, WE WILL BE ADDRESSING CLIMATE CHANGE AND PRESERVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE FOR EVERYONE ON EARTH.

THIS IS IN EVERYONE'S BEST INTERESTS.

>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

DON'T FORGET, IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, JUST GO TO OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM NEW YORK.

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