>> CATHY: DATA CENTERS ARE MAKING HEADLINES AGAIN THIS WEEK IN HERMANTOWN AND PINE ISLAND, WITH THE PROPOSED CENTER IN PINE ISLAND IS NOW FACING A NEW KIND ENVIRONMENTAL REVIEW.

HERE TO TALK TO US ABOUT THAT REVIEW AND THE LARGER ISSUES DRIVING SOME VOTERS TO THE POLLS, KATHRYN HOFFMAN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE MINNESOTA CENTER FOR ENVIRONMENTAL ADVOCACY.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANKS, CATHY.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> Cathy: ABSOLUTELY.

SO HOW IS THIS REVIEW PROCESS DIFFERENT FROM WHAT THE TRADITIONAL REVIEW PROCESS HAS BEEN TO THIS POINT?

>> SO, THE REVIEW PROCESS IN PINE ISLAND WAS A CITY-LEVEL REVIEW PROCESS.

IT'S CALLED AN A VV AND IT'S VERY LOCALIZED VIEW.

AND THAT'S BEEN THE CASE FOR ALL OF THE DATA CENTERS, THESE BIG ONES THAT HAVE STARTED TO GO THROUGH THE PROCESS IN MINNESOTA.

AND THE CHALLENGE HERE IS THAT DATA CENTERS, THESE NEW HYPER-SCALE AI DATA CENTERS, THEY'RE BIG, COMPLEX PROJECTS, AND THEY HAVE STATEWIDE AND REGIONALWIDE ISSUES.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW, IF THEY'RE USING A LOT OF WATER, THAT'S GOING TO AFFECT NEIGHBORING CITIES, INDUSTRIAL FACILITIES, AGRICULTURE, PEOPLE'S PRIVATE WELLS.

SO THERE'S QUESTIONS OUTSIDE THE CITY BORDER.

SIMILARLY, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, BIG INCREASES IN ENERGY USE.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT CHANGING OUR STATEWIDE GRID.

THESE ARE STATEWIDE QUESTIONS OF HOW ARE WE GOING TO PAY FOR THAT AND ARE WE GOING TO DO THAT WITH CLEAN ENERGY OR FOSSIL FUELS.

AND, SO, THIS LOCALIZED PROCESS, YOU KNOW, I THINK THE CITIES JUST STRUGGLE TO DEAL WITH THOSE KINDS MUCH QUESTIONS.

SO THIS NEW PROCESS IS DIFFERENT BECAUSE IT WILL BE RUN BY THE STATE, BY THE MINNESOTA POLLUTION CONTROL AGENCY, AND THEY JUST HAVE A LOT MORE TOOLS AS STATE AGENCIES TO ANALYZE THESE ISSUES AND TO REALLY STUDY THEM IN A HELPFUL WAY, SO IT WILL BE TRANSPARENT, WE HOPE IT WILL BE THOROUGH.

WE'LL HAVE A 60-DAY PUBLIC COMMENT PERIOD, SO LOTS OF TIME FOR PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE, TO WEIGH IN AND COMMENT.

AND, SO, WE'RE REALLY EXCITED ABOUT THIS FIRST TIME THAT THE STATE'S GOING TO BE DOING THIS REVIEW.

>> Cathy: I CAN IMAGINE HEARING THAT MAYBE THE PUSHBACK FROM SOME OF THE BUSINESSES, THIS IS GOING TO SLOW THINGS DOWN.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, THEY COULD HAVE CHOSEN THIS PATH IN THE FIRST PLACE.

IS THE FIRST THING I WOULD SAY.

THESE LOCALIZED REVIEWS, IT WAS NEVER CLEAR, TO BE HONEST, THAT THEY MADE MUCH SENSE FOR DATA CENTERS.

AND IT WAS ALWAYS AN OPTION FOR THEM TO START AT THE STATE LEVEL AND OPT FOR THE STRATEGY IN THE FIRST PLACE.

AND THEN PROBABLY THEY WOULD BE DONE WITH IT.

SO I THINK THAT'S ONE THING.

AND THEN THE SECOND THING IS THAT, YEAH, SOMETIMES TRANSPARENCY AND DEMOCRACY TAKES TIME.

RIGHT?

TO HAVE A GOOD STUDY, TO GIVE FOLKS A CHANCE TO WEIGH IN, AND, UNFORTUNATELY, A LOT OF THE DATA CENTERS SO FAR HAVE OPTED FOR SPEED OVER TRANSPARENCY AND DEMOCRACY.

AND THAT'S SOMETHING WE'D LIKE TO SEE CHANGED.

>> Cathy: SO THIS IS PINE ISLAND.

BUT I'M WONDERING, THERE ARE DATA CENTER PROJECTS ALL AROUND THE STATE.

IS IT STILL TOO LATE FOR HERMANTOWN, INVER GROVE HEIGHTS TO BE A PART OF SOMETHING LIKE THIS?

>> IT'S NOT AT ALL.

IN FACT, OUR HOPE S THAT THIS WILL BE A BLUEPRINT FOR OTHER DATA CENTERS.

A SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT, IN AND OF ITSELF, IS A NEGOTIATION BETWEEN THE ARTIES AND IT'S A RESOLUTION OF A PARTICULAR CASE.

SO IT'S NOT PRECEDENTIAL, THE WAY THAT, LIKE, A COURT OPINION WOULD BE.

HOWEVER, IT IS A GOOD PATH FORWARD THAT OTHER DATA CENTERS CAN FOLLOW AND, IN FACT, WE HAVE LITIGATION FOR OTHER DATA CENTERS AROUND THE STATE, INCLUDING HERMANTOWN, MONTICELLO, AND, SO, MY HOPE IS THAT WE CAN USE THIS AS A BLUEPRINT FOR THESE OTHER ONES GOING FORWARD AND THEY CAN ALL UNDERGO THE STATE REVIEW AND THEY CAN LOOK AT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN PINE ISLAND AND SAY, HEY, YOU KNOW WHAT, IT'S NOT SO BAD, IT'S NOT SO SCARY, WE CAN DO IT, TOO, AND FOLLOW THAT PATH.

>> Cathy: FINAL QUESTION FOR YOU.

JUST HOW STICKY CAN THIS GET GOING FORWARD?

YOU KNOW, THERE'S BEEN SO MUCH TALK, PEOPLE ARE SO UPSET ABOUT SOME OF THE DATA CENTER PROJECTS, HOW STICKY CAN IT GET IN THE FUTURE?

>> I MEAN, FOR SURE THE CONVERSATIONS AT THE LOCAL LEVEL HAVE BEEN TENSE.

YOU KNOW, WE SEE IT COMING UP IN A LOT OF THE LOCAL ELECTIONS AND THE CITY COUNCIL ELECTIONS.

SO I DO THINK THEY CAN BE -- YOU KNOW, THEY CAN BE HARD CONVERSATIONS.

WE HAVE A VERY POLITICALLY POLARIZED ENVIRONMENT HERE, I'M NOT SAYING ANYTHING ANYONE DOESN'T KNOW ALREADY.

I DO THINK THAT TRANSPARENCY IS THE FIRST STEP, THOUGH, TO A BETTER CONVERSATION.

I THINK PART OF WHAT'S MADE IT HARD SO FAR IS THAT FOLKS ARE TALKING ABOUT THESE ISSUES WITHOUT THE FACTS.

AND ONCE WE HAVE THE FACTS AND IT'S REALLY LAID OUT, HERE ARE THE ENVIRONMENTAL CONCERNS, HERE ARE THE SOLUTIONS THAT ARE PROPOSED, HERE ARE THE ECONOMIC BENEFITS AND DRAWBACKS, HOPEFULLY WE HAVE A BETTER CONVERSATION FOR A GOOD DEMOCRATIC PROCESS.

>> Cathy: ALL RIGHT.

GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.