>> Cathy: THAT WAS SO LONG AGO.

[ LAUGHTER ] WELL, AT NY RATE WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE ON WITH THE PROGRAM.

ON THURSDAY THE MINNEAPOLIS CITY COUNCIL APPROVED A NEW UNION CONTRACT FOR THE MINNEAPOLIS POLICE DEPARTMENT.

THE CONTRACT CONTAINS A HISTORIC 22% PAY RAISE FOR OFFICERS, ADVOCATES SAY THIS WILL HELP ATTRACT MORE RECRUITS TO THE FORCE, CRITICS, ON THE OTHER HAND SAY THE RAISES ARE NOT WARRANTED GIVEN THE LACK OF DEPARTMENT REFORM.

HERE TO HELP US SIFT THROUGH THE DETAILS IS UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA SOCIOLOGY PROFESSOR MICHELLE PHELPS WHO RECENTLY WROTE A BOOK ON THE HISTORY OF THE M.P.D.

PROFESSOR, WELCOME BACK.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> Cathy: I BET YOU PROBABLY HAVE FOLLOWED THE UPS AND DOWNS OF THE NEGOTIATIONS IN THE CITY COUNCIL AND I'M WONDERING, THIS IS A BIG PAY RAISE.

HAS THE MINNEAPOLIS POLICE DEPARTMENT EVER SEEN SOMETHING LIKE THAT?

>> YOU KNOW, THIS KIND OF HISTORIC PAY RAISE IS UNIQUE, CERTAINLY WHEN WE LOOK AT THE MOST RECENT CONTRACT THERE WAS A SORT OF A SMALL BONUS FOR OFFICERS BUT WE DIDN'T SEE THIS KIND OF INCREASE IN THE SALARY.

AND I THINK WHAT'S MOST NOTABLE IS WHERE IT WILL PUT MINNEAPOLIS COMPARED TO OTHER CITIES IN MINNESOTA AND IN THE STATE.

THIS IS REALLY GOING TO SHIFT WHERE THE DEPARTMENT IS RANKED IN TERMS OF OFFICER SALARIES.

>> Eric: YOU KNOW THIS WELL, THAT IN THE PAST THE POLICE CONTRACT HAS BEEN SEEN AS A BLOCK TO REFORM.

AND NOW ALL OF A SUDDEN IT'S THE GATEWAY TO PROGRESSIVE REFORM, LITTLE IRONIC, OR?

>> RIGHT, SO, YOU KNOW, THE MAYOR I THINK IS RIGHTFULLY GETTING SOME PUSHBACK IN THE MOMENT BECAUSE IN SUMMER 2020, ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS WAS THAT THE REASON WE HADN'T HAD MORE REFORM OF THE M.P.D.

WAS BECAUSE OF THE BARRIERS OF THE UNIONS AND THE FEDERATION'S POWER AND IN PARTICULAR THE UNION CONTRACT.

AND BY THE TIME WE SAW THE NEXT ITERATION OF THE CONTRACT, WHICH WAS IN 2022, AND WOULD EXPIRE BEFORE THAT -- BY THE TIME THAT YEAR WAS OVER LEADING TO THIS NEW NEGOTIATION, THAT CONTRACT, RIGHT, DIDN'T INCLUDE REALLY ANY PROVISIONS THAT FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGED HOW MISCONDUCT HAPPENED IN THE DEPARTMENT OR THE KINDS OF TRANSPARENCY AND OVERSIGHT THAT PEOPLE WERE CALLING FOR, AND IT DOES FEEL LIKE THE BALL HAS SHIFTED, RIGHT, IN TERMS OF WHERE REFORM IS SUPPOSED TO BE HAPPENING.

AND I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT THE UNION CONTRACT, IF YOU LOOK AT POLICIES AND PRACTICES, IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH CIVILIAN OVERSIGHT, IN NONE OF THOSE SPACES IT IS IT REALLY CLEAR WHAT'S CHANGED WITH THE M.P.D.

IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS.

>> Cathy: WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE FACT THAT THE CHIEF NOW HAS MORE POWER EVIDENTLY UNDER THIS CONTRACT THAN HE OR SHE HAD PRIOR?

>> SO I THINK ONE OF THE POSITIVE CHANGES IN THIS UNION CONTRACT IS THAT THERE IS MORE EXECUTIVE AUTHORITY OVER STAFFING POSITIONS AND EXPANDS THE ABILITY OF THE DEPARTMENT TO HIRE CIVILIAN STAFF IN INVESTIGATORY POSITION.

I THINK BOTH OF THOSE MOVES ARE GOOD MOVES TO TRY AND MAKE SURE THAT THE WAY THAT WE'RE DEPLOYING THE POLICE OFFICERS THAT WE DO HAVE MAKES SENSE FROM ORGANIZATIONAL PERSPECTIVES AND NOT JUST THE UNION CONTRACT.

BUT, AGAIN, WHETHER OR NOT THAT WILL SORT OF SOLVE HE BIG CRISES THAT THE CITY IS FACING I THINK IS A QUESTION MARK.

>> Eric: SO HOW FAR AWAY ARE WE FROM DEFUND THE POLICE AND RADICAL TRANSFORMATION, SOME OF THE BUZZWORDS THAT HAVE BEEN CREATED THROUGH THIS EPISODE?

>> SURE, I MEAN, YOU KNOW, THE FUNNY THING THAT GETS LOST IN THE DEBATES ABOUT DEFUND THE POLICE IS THAT THE FOCUS OF THE SLOGAN OBVIOUSLY IS ON PULLING MONEY AWAY FROM THE POLICE DEPARTMENT, BUT WHAT THAT MOVEMENT WAS REALLY TRYING TO SAY WAS THAT WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND POLICE NOT AS SYNONYMOUS WITH PUBLIC SAFETY, THAT THERE ARE OTHER WAYS TO GET PUBLIC SAFETY AND SOMETIMES POLICE DEPARTMENTS HARM PUBLIC SAFETY, RIGHT, AS WITH THE MURDER OF GEORGE FLOYD.

SO WHAT DEFUND REALLY WANTED TO DO WAS TO MAKE US RETHINK WHEN DO WE NEED TO SEND ARMED POLICE OFFICERS?

WHAT IS THE RIGHT NUMBER AND STAFFING AND WHAT DO WE THINK ABOUT HOW DO WE USE THE BUDGETS THAT CITIES HAVE AVAILABLE TO THEM?

AND SO, YOU KNOW, IN SOME WAYS THIS IS A LOSS OBVIOUSLY IN THAT THE DEPARTMENT'S COSTS WILL GO UP AND THEIR SALARY COSTS WILL GO UP, BUT THINGS LIKE MORE CIVILIAN STAFF AND ACTUALLY AN M.P.D.

THAT IS TRYING TO ADAPT TO THE FACT THAT IT WILL BE A SMALLER DEPARTMENT, THOSE IN SOME WAYS ARE MOVES THAT YOU COULD SEE AS CONSISTENT WITH WHAT ADVOCATES WERE TRYING TO CALL FOR IN SUMMER 2020 WITH THAT SLOGAN.

>> Cathy: SO HAD THERE NOT BEEN THIS CONTRACT THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN ACCEPTED BY THE CITY COUNCIL IT WOULD HAVE GONE BACK INTO MEDIATION, WOULD THAT HAVE BEEN THEN MAYBE IF THAT WERE TO HAVE HAPPENED, WOULD WE SEE FEWER REFORMS THAN ARE ALREADY IN THE CONTRACT?

>> SO THIS IS ALWAYS SORT OF THE SCARE TACTIC BROUGHT OUT AT THE END OF THIS PROCESS.

SO THE CITY COUNCIL FORMALLY HAS VERY LITTLE ROLE IN THE NEGOTIATION PROCESS WITH THE UNION OVER THE CONTRACT.

AND SO IT COMES AT THE END AFTER OFFICERS HAVE ALREADY RATIFIED THAT THEY WANT TO VOTE FOR THE UNION CONTRACT, THEN THE CITY COUNCIL HAS A CHANCE TO WEIGH IN.

BUT THE CITY COUNCIL REALLY CAN ONLY GIVE IT A THUMBS UP OR THUMBS DOWN.

THAT IS THE SCOPE OF THEIR AUTHORITY.

AND IF THEY WOULD HAVE NOT HAVE APPROVED IT, YES, IT OULD HAVE GONE BACK TO MEDIATION AND POTENTIALLY ARBITRATION ND THERE WAS A CONCERN THAT THAT WOULD LEAD TO A WORSE CONTRACT OVERALL.

I DON'T KNOW IF WE HAVE GOOD EVIDENCE ONE WAY OR ANOTHER BUT IT'S CERTAINLY NOT OBVIOUS THAT HAD THE CITY COUNCIL TURNED DOWN AT THIS POINT THAT WE WOULD HAVE WOUND UP WITH A BETTER CONTRACT.

>> Cathy: I'M KIND OF CURIOUS ABOUT, AND IT'S KIND OF CONFUSING FOR PEOPLE, THERE ARE THE CONSENT DECREES, RIGHT, THAT I'M WONDERING HOW THIS CONTRACT FITS INTO THAT PUZZLE.

>> RIGHT.

SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK ABOUT POLICING AS IN THIS REGULATORY MAZE.

SO YOU HAVE THE CITY LEVEL DEPARTMENTS AND PRACTICES, YOU HAVE STATE LAW, YOU HAVE FEDERAL LAW, AND OPERATING IN BETWEEN ALL OF THAT IS THIS DEPARTMENT AND ITS DAY TO DAY ACTIONS.

SO, YES, THE NION CONTRACT IS JUST A PIECE OF THE REFORM PROCESS.

I THINK THE MAYOR IS CORRECT WHEN HE SAYS THIS IS NOT THE ONLY WAY TO REFORM A DEPARTMENT AND IT'S NOT.

THERE ARE LOTS OF OTHER ROUTES AND THE CONSENT DECREE, SO THERE'S ONE ONGOING NOW THAT THE CITY IS UNDER WITH THE MINNESOTA DEPARTMENT OF HUMAN RIGHTS.

THEY'RE ALSO NEGOTIATING A SECOND CONSENT DECREE WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE THAT WE HAVEN'T SEEN THE FINAL DETAILS ON.

I EXPECT BOTH OF THOSE, CERTAINLY THE ONE WE ALREADY KNOW ABOUT AND THE DOJ WHEN IT COMES OUT, BOTH OF THOSE WILL INVOLVE A FAIR DEAL OF POLICY AND PRACTICE WE REFORMS OF THE DEPARTMENT.

BUT REALLY IMPORTANTLY, ALL OF THOSE EGOTIATED AGREEMENTS WITH THE COURTS, THEY ALL CEDE WHAT IS GRIEVABLE THROUGH THE UNION AS A SEPARATE PROCESS.

SO THE CONSENT DECREES WILL NEVER OVERRULE WHAT IS IN THE UNION CONTRACT, RIGHT, BECAUSE THAT IS BARGAINING AGREEMENT, THEY HAVE THOSE TERMS SET IN PLACE.

AND SO IT DOES IN SOME WAYS CONSTRAIN THEN, WHATEVER IS WRITTEN INTO THE UNION CONTRACT MEANS IT CAN'T BE CHANGED THROUGH CONSENT DECREE PROCESS.

>> Cathy: THANK YOU FOR T