>> ERIC: A LOCAL STANCHION IN MEDIA ETHICS HAS RETIRED FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA.

JANE KIRTLEY HAS BEEN AT THE HELM OF THE SILHA CENTER FOR MORE THAN 2 1/2 DECADES.

WE'VE INVITED HER BACK FOR ONE MORE CONVERSATION ABOUT THE MEDIA LANDSCAPE AND OF COURSE TO WISH HER WELL.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Eric: I SUPPOSE THE QUESTION THIS WEEK IS HOW THE POLITICAL CLIMATE IS AFFECTING THE NEWS MEDIA AND VICE VERSA?

WHAT ARE YOUR BROAD THOUGHTS ON THE WHOLE THING.

>> Cathy: HEALTHY IS NOT A WORD YOU'D WANT TO USE.

>> NOW IS NOT A GREAT TIME FOR THE LEGACY NEWS MEDIA, IT'S BEING ATTACKED FROM ALL SIDES AND INTERNALLY.

AND I FEEL LIKE I'M LEAVING MY JOB AT NOT AN OPPORTUNE MOMENT.

BUT AS THE FORMER AND NOW ONE OF THE USTICES OF THE U.S.

SUPREME COURT, WILLIAM BREN YEN TOLD ME, YOU JUST KEEP FIGHTING, HONEY, AND I WILL KEEP FIGHT.

>> Cathy: YOU KNOW, I THOUGHT I HEARD YOU SAY THAT YOU'RE KIND OF -- LIKE I AM, YOU'RE AN A.I.

SKEPTIC AND ONE BIG REASON YOU DECIDED TO RETIRE NOW IS BECAUSE OF IT?

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

IT'S THE DEVIL'S TOOL.

I'M VERY, VERY ANXIOUS ABOUT ITS IMPACT NOT JUST ON THE NEWS MEDIA AND JOURNALISM, BUT ON PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE.

THAT'S ALWAYS BEEN UNDER ATTACK, BUT I THINK .I.

IS MAKING IT EVEN MORE DANGEROUS.

>> Cathy: I REALLY WORRY ABOUT YOUNG REPORTERS.

I DIDN'T IMAGINE -- I WAS JUST "ALMANAC: AT THE "ALMANAC: ATALKING TO ONE IN MO, THEY INSTITUTED A A.I.

REPORTING TOOL AND REALLY, THEY'RE JUST -- IT'S LIKE THEY'RE IN THE PASSENGER SEAT.

>> IT'S REALLY DISTURBING.

PAPERS LIKE THE COMPLIEN DEALER THAT HAVE SAID WE'RE GOING TO USE A.I.

TO WRITE OUR STROARS.

IT'S LIKE REWRITE IN THE OLDEN DAYS.

IF NOTHING ELSE BECAUSE A.I.

WRITING READS LIKE A.I.

WRITING AND THE HUMANITY OF IT IS GONE AND THAT'S THE THING THAT I KEEP SAYING TO PEOPLE.

THIS IS NOT HUMAN.

THIS DOES NOT THINK.

THIS IS A PROGRAM AND IT CAN BE USED I SUPPOSE FOR GOOD.

BUT UNFORTUNATELY, IT CAN BE USED FOR BAD AS WELL.

>> Eric: BUT THERE MUST BE SOME RESPONSIBILITY ON THE PART OF THE LEGACY IMMEDIATE THAT THEY MISSED THE BOAT.

>> OH, THERE'S PLENTY OF BLAME TO SPREAD AROUND.

LET'S BE CLEAR.

AND I THINK THERE WERE LOST OPPORTUNITIES ALONG THE WAY.

AND PEOPLE LOST THEIR WAY IN LARGE PART I THINK BECAUSE THEY LOST THEIR SIGHT OF THEIR MISSION.

I BELIEVE THAT JOURNALISM IS ULTIMATELY AN AL TRUISTIC THING.

IT'S ABOUT THE PUBLIC GOOD.

IT'S ABOUT SERVING THE PUBLIC INTEREST, AND IF YOUR ONLY GOAL IS TO MAXIMIZE CRANKING OUT CONTENT, MAXIMIZING MONEY, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE SERVING THE PUBLIC INTEREST.

YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE DOING WHAT JOURNALISM IS ALL ABOUT.

>> Cathy: THERE'S I THINK A SACRED TRUST WE HAVE WITH OUR LISTENERS AND OUR VIEWERS AND YOUR READERS, RIGHT, AS JOURNALISTS?

>> I THINK SO.

AND IF YOU LOSE HAT CREDIBILITY ANYWHERE ALONG THE WAY, THEN IT'S VERY, VERY HARD TO GET IT BACK.

>> Cathy: I WONDER AS A HISTORIAN, WE GREW UP STUDYING THE FAIRNESS DOCTRINE, WHICH WAS A RULE THAT SAID YOU HAD TO COVER ALL SIDES OF AN ISSUE.

AND IT WAS -- >> CONTROVERSIAL ISSUES OF PUBLIC IMPORTANCE.

>> Cathy: THANK YOU.

BOTH SIDES -- THANK YOU.

AND IT WAS TRASHED DURING THE REAGAN ERA, RIGHT?

IS THE HORSE OUT OF THE BARN AT THIS POINT IN TERMS OF PUBLIC TRUST?

COULD YOU BRING SOMETHING LIKE THAT BACK?

>> AS MUCH AS I DISGREED WAS THE ABOLITION OF THE FAIRNESS DOCTRINE, IT REALLY DIDN'T WORK HE WAY IT SUPPOSED TO WORK.

IT MEANT THAT MANY NEWS ORGANIZATIONS CHOSE NOT TO COVER ISSUES AT ALL.

I THINK IT'S VERY, VERY DIFFICULT FOR THERE TO BE GOVERNMENT MANDATES FOR FAIRNESS.

ULTIMATELY THAT HAS TO BE BASED ON WHAT THE NEWS ORGANIZATIONS DO AND WHAT THEIR READERS AND VIEWERS AND LISTENERS DEMAND.

>> Eric: 30 SECONDS ON AN ECONOMIC MODEL FOR THE NEWS MEDIA.

>> OH, PLEASE, IF I KNEW THAT, HERE, WE'VE JUST HEARD THAT THE "STAR TRIBUNE" IS CONSIDERING GOING TO A FOUNDATION MODEL.

THAT'S BEEN ATTEMPTED.

IT'S BEEN TRIED.

PEOPLE LIKE DICT TEEFEL ARE SKEPTICAL OF IT AND I AM AS WELL.

I THINK WE HAVE TO MEET OUR READERS WHERE THEY ARE.

I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S TIKTOK OR SOME THER SOCIAL MEDIA.

THAT RUG'S BEEN PULLED OUT FROM UNDER US.

>> Cathy: YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE COMPLETELY BE A SILENT VOICE, RIGHT?

>> IN SOME WAYS, I THINK I'M EVEN FREER NOW TO SAY WHAT I REALLY THINK.

>> Eric: WE GOT YOU ON SPEED