>> NOW, AN EXHIBIT FEATURING PEOPLE ENSLAVED BY GEORGE WASHINGTON MUST BE RESTORED IN ITS ORIGINAL PLACE.

THAT IS THE RULING FROM A FEDERAL JUDGE AFTER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION REMOVED THE DISPLAY FROM PHILADELPHIA'S NATIONAL HISTORICAL PARK LAST MONTH.

THIS FOLLOWS NEW PRESIDENTIAL GUIDANCE FOR THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT TO, "RESTORE TRUTH TO AMERICAN HISTORY. "

AT NATIONAL SITES AND INSTITUTIONS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

OUR NEXT GUEST, JOHN MEECHAM, ARGUES THIS IS PART OF THE ADMINISTRATION'S ATTEMPTS TO SANITIZE AMERICAN'S HISTORY, AND HE'S JOINING WALTER ISAACSON IN CONVERSATION NOW.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE AND JOHN MEECHAM, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU.

>> YOUR NEW BOOK IS TITLED, "AMERICANS STRUGGLES. "

AND THEN I REALIZE EWE ACTUALLY MEAN THAT.

TO WHAT EXTENT HAS STRUGGLE BEEN AN ANIMATING FORCE TO OUR HISTORY?

>> IT IS THE ANIMATING FORCE.

WE'RE A POPULAR GOVERNMENT, THAT PEOPLE FORM IT.

WE ARE OF DIFFERENT DISPOSITIONS, POLITICALLY.

JEFFERSON SAID THE PEOPLE HAVE DIVIDED THEMSELVES INTO WIGS SINCE GREECE AND ROME.

SO PARTISANSHIP, POLITICAL CONFLICT IS A PART OF THE AIR WE BREATHE.

THE ISSUE HAS TO BE AND THE REASON THE FOUNDERS, BENJAMIN FRANKLIN, YOUR MAN, AND SO MANY OF THOSE CRITICAL FIGURES AT THE END OF THE 18th CENTURY, THEY'RE GREAT INSIGHT WAS THAT REFLECTIVE PARTISANSHIP WAS AN ENEMY.

REFLECTIVE PARTISANSHIP WAS FINE.

AND WHAT WE SHOULD DO.

I GO BACK AGAIN AND AGAIN NOW IN OUR OWN MOMENT TO ALEXANDER HAMILTON'S WHERE HE WROTE IN THE FEDERALIST, THIS IS A TEST TO SEE WHETHER THE REASON AND DELIBERATION CAN TAKE A STAND AGAINST FORCE AND ACCIDENT.

>> AND HAMILTON IN THAT FEDERAL PAPER TOO, KIND OF FORESHADOWS THE POSSIBILITY OF A LEADER, RIGHT?

>> AS YOU KNOW, THEY EXPECTED THIS.

I THINK IT WOULD HAVE SURPRISED THEM IT TOOK THIS LONG.

I WAS STRUCK BY LOOKING AT LINCOLN'S FIRST MAJOR SPEECH, 1838.

IT'S KIND OF A REFLECTIVE ADDRESS TO THE SPRINGFIELD AREA.

AND THERE WAS THIS MOMENT IN THE 1830s, WHERE THIS WAS THE FIRST POST FOUNDING GENERATION, AND THEY WERE WORRIED.

LINCOLN CALLED THEM THE MEN OF IRON, AND THEY WONDERED WHETHER THEY WOULD BE TO THE TASK OF CONTINUING THE WORK OF THE FOUNDERS.

LINCOLN SAYS IN THAT SPEECH THAT A TOWERING GENIUS COULD APPEAR WITHIN THE UNITED STATES, WITHIN THE REPUBLIC, AND DESTROY THAT REPUBLIC.

>> YOU THINK THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW?

>> I THINK WE ARE RUNNING IT FAR TOO CLOSE TO THE WIND, I DO.

I THINK I REMAIN FUNDAMENTALLY HOPEFUL ABOUT THE LIFE OF THE COUNTRY AND THE DURABILITY OF THE CONSTITUTION, THE RELEVANCE OF THE DECLARATION.

BUT IT WOULD BE FOOLHARDY AND UNREASONABLE FOR THOSE WITH EYES TO SEE AND EARS TO HEAR, NOT TO ACCEPT THE FUNDAMENTAL FACT THAT A PARTICULAR PARTISAN AND PERSONAL INTEREST IS IMBALANCING THE REPUBLICAN LOWER CASE R STRUCTURE, ABSOLUTELY.

>> I'VE JUST WRITTEN A BOOK ABOUT THE GREATEST SENTIMENTS, WRITTEN ABOUT THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE.

IT'S ABOUT WE HOLD THESE TRUTHS TO BE SELF-EVIDENT THAT ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL.

I WENT THROUGH YOUR BOOK.

I WAS STUNNED HOW MANY TIMES THAT SENTENCE, WHICH WAS NOT TRUE AT THE TIME THEY WROTE IT, BECOMES A FORCING MECHANISM.

I THINK DAVID WALKER USES IT IN YOUR BOOK, WILLIAM LLOYD GARRISON IS USING THE SENECA FALLS 1848 DECLARATION ABOUT WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

LINCOLN, OF COURSE, INVOKES IT.

KENNEDY, KING, JOHNSON.

HOW IS THAT SECULAR SENTENCE SORT OF THE FORCING MECHANISM OF THE AMERICAN STRUGGLE?

>> AS YOU WROTE IN THAT WONDERFUL BOOK.

IT'S THE ESSENTIAL INSIGHT.

WE DIDN'T HAVE TO DECLARE THAT OUR NATION'S STAY WOULD BE FOUNDED ON AN IDEA.

WE COULD HAVE DONE IT ANY NUMBER OF WAYS.

THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, JOHN ADAMS THOUGHT THE DAY WE WOULD ALL CELEBRATE.

CLASSIC LAWYER.

HE THOUGHT THE DAY WE WOULD ALL CELEBRATE WOULD BE THE DAY WE WOULD REORGANIZE THE STATES' GOVERNMENT, YOU KNOW?

BUT JEFFERSON WITH THE POETIC SENSIBILITY ELEVATED IT.

AND IT'S WHY WE ARE HERE AND DR.

KING, AS YOU SAY, COMES TO IT MORE THAN WASHINGTON.

I THINK IT ENDURES BECAUSE WE ENATELY UNDERSTAND HOW IT'S RIGHT.

THE CONSCIOUS OF THE NATION HAD TO BE ROUSED.

WE DO HAVE AN ABILITY TO KNOW WHAT IS RIGHT AND WHAT IS WRONG.

AND IT IS, IF I MAY, SELF-EVIDENTLY THE CASE, THAT HUMAN EQUALITY BEFORE GOD AND BEFORE THE LAW, NOT EQUALITY OF OUTCOME, BUT WE ALL BEGIN FROM THE SAME PLACE IS TRUE.

IT IS ALSO, NOT TO BE CYNICAL, BUT TO BE STRAIGHTFORWARD ABOUT IT, IT IS ALSO IN OUR INTEREST.

YOU ARE FAR MORE LIKELY TO DEFEND MY SOVEREIGNTY AS A HUMAN BEING, IF I DEFEND YOURSELVES.

YOU'RE MORE LIKELY TO LEND A HAND TO ME IF I LEND ONE TO YOU.

DEMOCRACY IS A COVENANT.

IT IS ONE WITH OBLIGATIONS, WITH RIGHTS, AND WITH RESPONSIBILITIES.

AND WHEN THAT BREAKS, WHEN WE BEGIN TO SEE EACH OTHER OR WHEN WE START AGAIN SEEING EACH OTHER AS OTHER, THEN AS OPPOSED TO FELLOW AMERICANS, CHAOS RESULTS.

WE FALL BACK INTO WHAT HOBBS'S CALLED THE STATE OF NATURE, AND THAT'S WHAT I WORRY ABOUT THE MOST RIGHT NOW IS OUR POLITICS INCENTIVIZES CONFLICT ABOVE CONCILIATION AND PROBLEM SOLVING.

>> THE UNDERLYING THEME IN THE BOOK AND IN THE PERENNIAL STRUGGLE OF AMERICA, ONE OF THE GREAT THINGS IS RACE, OF COURSE.

THE DREAD SCOTT DECISION, YOU KNOW, CHIEF JUSTICE ROGER TAWNEY, REALLY WOULD REJECT THAT WHOLE NOTION THAT SECOND SENTENCE OF THE DECLARATION SAYS WE'RE ALL CREATED EQUAL.

AND IT IS A DOCUMENT THAT INFLAMED FREDERICK DOUGLASS.

AND THAT HELPS SET UP THE TENSION IN YOUR BOOK TOO?

>> IT DOES.

FREDERICK DOUGLASS, ON A SMALL CAMPAIGN, I'M GOING TO ENLIST YOU.

WE NEED A FREDERICK DOUGLASS MEMORIAL.

I DON'T THINK THIS IS, PERHAPS, THE SEASON TO DO IT, BUT I THINK HE'S ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT AMERICANS WHO EVER LIVED, AND CERTAINLY ONE OF THE TWO OR THREE MOST IMPORTANT AMERICANS OF THE 19th CENTURY.

IMAGINE WHAT IT TAKES FOR A FORMERLY ENSLAVED PERSON, SOMEONE BORN INTO ENSLAVEMENT, WHO HAD TO ESCAPE MARYLAND, TO SAY IN THE FACE OF THE SLAVE ORDER AND IN THE FACE OF THE DREAD SCOTT DECISION THAT THE CONSTITUTION IS A GLORIOUS LIBERTY DOCUMENT THAT THE WORDS OF JEFFERSON WILL PREVAIL, AND THAT ALL THE POWERS OF THE EARTH USE A PHRASE OF LINCOLN'S, MAYBE CONSPIRING AGAINST THE BLACK MAN IN AMERICA.

BUT AS DOUGLASS SAID, I, FOR ONE, DO NOT DESPAIR THE PUBLIC.

LET THERE BE LIGHT, HAS NOT YET SPENT ITS FORCE.

AND DOUGLASS IS IT THIS PERSISTENT VOICE, INSISTING THE SUPREME COURT FOR A MOMENT MAY BE WRONG, CONGRESS MAY BE WRONG, THE PRESIDENCY MAY BE WRONG.

ALL THE POWERS MAY BE ALIGNED AGAINST JUSTICE AND THAT SENTENCE.

BUT IN THE END, DOUGLASS HAD FAITH THAT ITS TRUTH WOULD MARCH ON, AND IT DID THROUGH CIVIL WAR.

IT WASN'T EASY.

NOBODY IN OUR NATIVE REGION WOKE UP IN THE MIDDLE OF THE 19th CENTURY AND DECIDED, HEY, LET'S END HUMAN ENSLAVEMENT, RIGHT?

WE HAD TO FIGHT A WAR THAT KILLED PROBABLY 750,000 PEOPLE.

WE CONTINUE TO LIVE WITH THE IMPLICATIONS OF THAT.

OUT OF NEW ORLEANS CAME FERGUSON.

OUT OF TENNESSEE CAME THE KU KLUX KLAN.

YOU KNOW, OUR HISTORY IS TRAGIC AND BLOODY AND COMPLICATED AND PAINFUL.

AND ALSO NOBLE AND GRAND AND ELEVATING.

BUT THE NOBLE, GRAND, ELEVATING MOMENTS CAME BECAUSE INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE INSISTED THAT THAT SENTENCE PREVAIL.

>> YOU QUOTE DOUGLASS AS SAYING THESE FOUNDERS GAVE US A PLATFORM THAT WAS BROAD ENOUGH AND STRONG ENOUGH UPON WHICH WE CAN STAND.

BUT LET ME READ YOU SOMETHING YOU WROTE IN THIS BOOK.

YOU SAY IT IS FALLING ON US TO REPAIR IT, TO RESTORE IT, THEN SOME TO STAND UPON IT.

HOWEVER FEROCIOUS THE STRUGGLE, ARE WE IN A FEROCIOUS STRUGGLE NOW?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK IN OUR FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES OF THE AMERICAN EXPERIMENT THAT ARE ON TRIAL, THE RULE OF LAW IS ON TRIAL.

DUE PROCESS IS ON TRIAL.

OUR CUSTOMS AND NORMS ARE UNDER SIEGE.

OUR CARES AND CONCERN, THE CARES AND CONCERNS OF MANY AMERICANS HAVE MANIFESTED THEMSELVES IN AGAIN, ILLIBRI AL MOMENT.

I DO NOT DESPAIR THE PUBLIC, BUT I ALSO DO NOT THINK THAT -- I THINK IT REQUIRES ALL OF US TO STAND ON THAT PLATFORM, TO USE THAT METAPHOR, TO STAND?

THE ARENA, AND TO BE WILLING.

WALTER, I THINK YOU WOULD AGREE WITH THIS.

>> YOU HAVE TO BE WILLING IN A REPUBLIC TO LOSE.

YOU HAVE TO BE WILLING TO ACCEPT VERDICTS AND FACTS AND DECISIONS OF VOTERS THAT CUT INTO YOUR IMMEDIATE INTEREST.

AND THE THING I WORRY ABOUT THE MOST IS FOR THE FIRST TERM OF PRESIDENT TRUMP, I BELIEVED HE WAS THE DIFFERENCE OF DEGREE, BUT NOT KIND.

THAT WE BASICALLY SEE MUCH OF WHAT HE WANTED TO DO BEFORE, PERHAPS OUT OF THE PRESIDENTIAL LEVEL, BUT IT WAS RECOGNIZABLE, RIGHT?

THEN COMES WHAT I THINK OF AS THE UNFOLDING JANUARY 6, AFTER THE ELECTION OF 2020, WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP REALLY INTRODUCED INTO THE BODY POLITIC, THIS VIRUS, OF DISTRUSTING AND DELEGITIMIZING ELECTIONS, SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T LIKE THE RESULT.

AND YOU'RE A HISTORIAN, YOU KNOW THIS AS WELL OR BETTER THAN I DO, THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN WITH ADAMS AND JEFFERSON.

IT DIDN'T HAPPEN IN 1824 WITH ANDREW JACKSON, WHO WENT BACK TO TENNESSEE AND RAN AGAIN.

IT DIDN'T HAPPEN IN 1960 WITH RICHARD NIXON, IT DIDN'T HAPPEN IN 1968 WITH HEBERT HUMPHREY.

IT DIDN'T HAPPEN IN 2000 WITH AL GORE.

IT DIDN'T HAPPEN IN 2016 WITH SECRETARY CLINTON.

ELECTIONS THAT WERE INCREDIBLY CLOSE.

BUT THE VERDICT WAS ACCEPTED BECAUSE A MATURE DEMOCRACY RECOGNIZES THAT SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO LOSE FOR A SEASON.

AND WHEN YOU HAVE A POLITICAL ORDER OR A POLITICAL MOVEMENT THAT'S FUNDAMENTALLY BASED ON THE IDEA THAT THE LEADER OF THE MOVEMENT CAN DO NO WRONG AND CAN ONLY WIN.

MOVES US BACK ALL THE WAY BACK BEFORE TOM PAYNE.

ALL THE WAY BACK BEFORE THE DECLARATION.

IT MOVES US BACK TO THE WORLD OF KINGS, AND THE WHOLE HISTORY OF THE WORLD, RUNNING INTO THE AMERICAN REPUBLIC WAS LARGELY DETERMINED BY THE WHIMS AND APPETITES OF INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE, WHO HAPPENED TO BE IN ABSOLUTE POWER.

AMERICAN EXPERIMENT WAS SUPPOSE TO EMPOWER ALL OF US, AND I THINK THAT'S AT RISK.

>> BUT LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT WHETHER TRUMP IS THE CAUSE OF THIS OR A SYMPTOM OF SOMETHING DEEPER IN OUR SOCIETY BECAUSE YOU SAY THE UNITED STATES HAVE GROWN STRONGER, FREER, AND WHEN IT HAS OPENED ITS ARMS, RATHER THAN CLINCH ITS FIST, WHEN THEY HAVE BUILT BRIDGES, NOT WALLS.

BUT THE SENTIMENT, THE POPULAR SENTIMENT NOW SEEMS TO BE ONE OF THE FISTS?

>> IT IS AND WE CANNOT DISMISS THE CONCERNS OF THOSE WHO HAVE CAST THEIR LOT WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP.

THE ELECTIONS OF 2016, A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF FOLKS IN 2020.

THE ELECTION OF 2024, AND THIS PARTICULAR MOMENT CLEARLY DEMONSTRATE THAT YOU'RE RIGHT.

THERE IS AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF UNHAPPINESS WITH THE INSTITUTIONS PERFORMED BY THE ORDER THAT I'M SITTING HERE DEFENDING.

AND SO ARE THESE INSTITUTIONS UNDERSIEGE RIGHTLY?

YOU CAN CERTAINLY ARGUE THAT.

YOU AND I ARE JOURNALISTS IN AN ERA IN WHICH IF YOU THINK ABOUT THE 21st CENTURY, IF YOU WERE BORN IN THE 21st CENTURY LIKE THE STUDENTS, WE'RE PRIVILEGED TO TEACH.

WHY WOULD YOU BELIEVE IN THE GREAT PUBLIC SECTOR?

RIGHT?

IT STARTS WITH SEPTEMBER 11, THE BARRIER OF INTELLIGENCE ABOUT WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION.

COVID, THE RISE OF TRUMP, JANUARY 6, THE GREAT RECESSION, SCHOOL SHOOTINGS AND DRILLS THAT IMPLICITLY SAY WE CAN'T KEEP YOU SAFE IN ONE OF THE PLACES YOU'RE SUPPOSE TO BE SAFEST.

WHY WOULD YOU THINK?

YOU AND I GREW UP IN A WORLD WHERE OUR PARENTS, GRANDPARENTS, DEFEAT ED TYRANNY AND FOUGHT.

THE PUBLIC SECTOR HAD RISEN TO THE OCCASION.

IT IS WHY THE STORY MATTERS SO MUCH.

WE HAVE TO TELL THE STORY.

>> YOU TELL THE STORY IN THIS BOOK.

IT'S ALL ABOUT THE HISTORY OF THE STRUGGLE.

YOU ALSO HELP PUBLISH A WONDERFUL BOOK BY DAVID MCCULLOGH.

HISTORY MATTERS.

IN BOTH THOSE BOOKS, YOU TALK ABOUT HISTORY NOW IN A POLARIZED ERA BEING A BATTLEFIELD ITSELF.

A SOURCE OF CONTENTION.

WE EVEN SEE IT WITH THE ADMINISTRATION TAKING SOME OF THE PLAQUES DOWN ON THE OLD PHILADELPHIA HOUSE, WHERE GENERAL WASHINGTON LIVED.

THEY TALK ABOUT SLAVERY.

TELL US ABOUT HISTORY AS A MATTER OF CONTENTION NOW?

>> WELL, THE MECHANICS OF MEMORY MATTER.

I'M SITTING HERE ARGUING THE UNDERSTANDING OF LIBERAL DEMOCRACY FROM THE LATE 18th CENTURY THROUGH THE FREEDOM MOVEMENTS OF THE 20th CENTURY IS AN EMPOWERING ELEVATING NARRATIVE.

THERE ARE THOSE WHO WOULD LIKE TO ARGUE THAT HISTORY IS DIFFERENT.

THAT THERE WERE, THERE ARE ALTERNATIVE NARRATIVES LIKE ALTERNATIVE FACTS, FROM THE FIRST TERM.

THAT IS MORE VALUABLE.

AND YOU'RE ALSO SEEING WITH THE PLAQUES THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP PUT UP IN THE WHITE HOUSE, THIS KIND OF, AGAIN, KIND OF AUTOCRATIC HISTORY, A NARCISSISTIC HISTORY.

IF YOU READ THE PLAQUES THAT ARE NOW UP IN THE COLONY OF THE WEST WING, IT'S ALL ABOUT EVERY OTHER AMERICAN PRESIDENT AND THEIR RELATIONSHIP TO PRESIDENT TRUMP, RIGHT?

AND SO IT'S NOT ABOUT US, IT'S NOT ABOUT WE THE PEOPLE, IT'S ABOUT HIM.

AND BY CONTROLLING, BY ATTEMPTING TO CONTROL HISTORICAL NARRATIVES, BY PUSHING ASIDE THE UNCOMFORTABLE ELEMENTS OF OUR HISTORY TO MAKE IT MORE HEROIC, YOU'RE FAILING SEEMS TO ME TO KEEP FAITH WITH THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE FOUGHT, BLED, AND DIED FOR THE COUNTRY.

THE MEN WHO HIT OMAHA BEACH.

THE SOLDIERS AT GETTYSBURG, THE FOLKS ON THE BRIDGE, THE WOMEN AT SENECA FALLS.

THE WOMEN WHO WERE FORCE FED AND THE SUFFRAGE MOVEMENT.

THEY WERE CONFRONTING WRONG AND URGING US TO MAKE IT RIGHT.

IF WE REMOVE THE WRONGS FROM OUR NARRATIVES, THEN WE ARE FAILING TO HONOR THE WORK THEY DID AND FAILING TO FIND INSPIRATION FOR OUR OWN ERA.

>> JON MEACHAM, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANKS, WALTER.