REPUBLICAN MEMBERS OF THE U.S. HOUSE SUCCESSFULLY OUSTED REPUBLICAN SPEAKER KEVIN MCCARTHY.

THE UNPRECEDENTED MOVE LEFT THE CHAMBER IN CHAOS WITHOUT A LEADER AND THE THREAT OF GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN AGAIN LOOMING NEXT MONTH.

HERE TO HELP US SORT OUT THE HISTORIC NATURE OF THE SITUATION IN WASHINGTON D.C., SOME POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSORS.

DAVID SCHULTZ TEACHES POLITICAL SCIENCE STUDENTS AT HAMLINE UNIVERSITY AS WELL AS LAW STUDENTS AT THE U OF M. THE U OF M'S HUMPHREY SCHOOL IS WHERE LARRY JACOBS TOILS AWAY.

AND WE ARE HOPING THAT MICHAEL MINTA WILL BE HERE AS WELL.

PROFESSOR MINTA ALSO TEACHES AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA.

PROFESSOR JACOBS, WOW.

I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT YOU WANT TO SAY ABOUT THIS, OTHER THAN IT'S HISTORIC AND UNPRECEDENTED.

>> YOU KNOW, THERE'S A LOT SAID ABOUT THE DYSFUNCTION IN WASHINGTON.

WE'RE A WHOLE 'NOTHER LEVEL OF DYSFUNCTION RIGHT NOW IN THE CHAOS.

FRANKLY, I DON'T THINK IT'S GOING TO STOP.

I MEAN, WHAT'S GOING ON NOW IS GOING TO BECOME PART OF A DRAMA THAT'S GOING TO PLAY OUT AGAIN AND AGAIN.

AND WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT THERE IS A STOP-GAP SPENDING THAT WILL BE OVER NOVEMBER 17th.

AT WHICH POINT THE GOVERNMENT WILL SHUT DOWN.

AND, SO, THE ODDS OF US AVERTING THAT, I THINK, ARE NOW VERY VERY SLIM.

>> Eric: IN THE UTOPIA THAT MIGHT BE CONGRESS, CAN DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS LINK ARMS AND DO A UNITY THING?

>> IN OUR FANTASY, YES.

IN REALITY, PROBABLY NOT AT THIS POINT.

BECAUSE THE INCENTIVE STRUCTURES ARE JUST NOT THERE AT THIS POINT.

THE BODY'S ALWAYS SUPPOSED TO OPERATE AS A PARTISAN BODY TO START WITH, BUT WHAT YOU REALLY HAVE AT THIS POINT IS THE WAY McCARTHY GOT HIS SPEAKERSHIP WAS TO REALLY SORT OF SELL HIS SOUL TO SAYING IT'S GOING TO BE EASY TO BE ABLE TO OUST A SPEAKER.

WE'VE GOT A NARROW REPUBLICAN MAJORITY.

WE HAVE A SPLINTER GROUP OF MAYBE EIGHT TO TEN REPUBLICANS WHO ARE SORT OF OFF ON THEIR OWN.

AND EACH MEMBER OF CONGRESS IS RESPONDING TO THE PRESSURES BACK HOME.

PUT IT ALL TOGETHER, IT'S HARD TO BREAK THAT INCENTIVE.

>> Eric: AND DEMOCRATS COULDN'T VOTE OR McCARTHY BECAUSE THE DEMOCRATIC BASE WOULD GO CRAZY.

>> THAT'S TRUE.

THOUGH THERE WERE PRIVATE NEGOTIATIONS GOING ON.

AND THERE WAS DISCUSSION OF A POWER SHARING ARRANGEMENT THAT WOULD INVOLVE SHARING CONTROL OF SOME OF THE VERY POWERFUL COMMITTEES AND ALSO ROLLING BACK THE POWER OF THIS RUMP GROUP.

AND KEVIN McCARTHY PASSED ON IT BECAUSE THAT WOULD HAVE INFURIATED HIS PARTY IN HE HOUSE BUT IT ALSO WOULD HAVE INFURIATED THE REPUBLICAN DONORS AND THE ACTIVISTS WHO ARE SO IMPORTANT IN THE PRIMARY BATTLES.

>> Cathy: LET'S TALK ABOUT SOME INDIVIDUALS WHO MIGHT BE UP FOR SPEAKER.

BY THE WAY, HELP SOME OF US OUT, THOSE OF US WHO TOOK POLITICAL SCIENCE CLASSES OBVIOUSLY DIDN'T REMEMBER THIS, BUT I THOUGHT YOU HAD TO BE A MEMBER OF CONGRESS TO BE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE.

>> NO, YOU DO NOT AT THIS POINT.

THERE'S A WHOLE BUNCH OF WONDERFUL PASSAGES OF THE CONSTITUTION THAT ARE VAGUE ENOUGH THAT YOU CAN DO A VARIETY OF THINGS WITH THEM.

AND THIS IS ONE OF THOSE SITUATIONS WHERE THIS IS FANTASY THAT PEOPLE ARE HAVING OUT THERE THAT, WHAT, DONALD TRUMP OR SOMEBODY ELSE COULD BE SPEAKER.

THEORETICALLY, YES, YOU COULD.

FROM A PRACTICAL POINT OF VIEW, I FIND IT HIGHLY UNLIKELY THAT YOU'RE GOING TO GET SOMEBODY FROM OUTSIDE THE CHAMBER TO BE ABLE TO -- TO REALLY BECOME SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE.

>> Eric: NOW, IN SEARCH OF THE ELUSIVE LOCAL ANGLE, MINNESOTA'S 6th, TOM EMMER, YOU KNOW, HE'S BEEN MENTIONED, BUT HE VOTED TO CERTIFY DONALD TRUMP -- NO -- SORRY, TRY IT AGAIN -- HE VOTED TO CERTIFY BIDEN.

THAT'S GOT TO BE A NONSTARTER THEN?

>> YOU KNOW, TOM EMMER'S WORKED VERY HARD TO BUILD RELATIONSHIPS WITH THIS RUMP GROUP IN THE FREEDOM CAUCUS.

SO HE'S PROBABLY MORE OF A LIBERTARIAN THAN A REPUBLICAN, THOUGH HE'S PRETTY GOOD AT NOT MAKING THAT FRONT AND CENTER.

AND, SO, I THINK THERE'S ACTUALLY SOME REAL TRUST WITH HIM.

WITH TOM EM-- WHAT TOM EMMER, THOUGH, IS DOING, HE'S LOOKING AT THE COALITIONS IN THE HOUSE AND I THINK HE SEES A CLEARER PATH BECOMING THE MAJORITY LEADER, WHO WOULD BE SECOND TO THE SPEAKER, AND THAT WOULD POSITION HIM FOR THE FUTURE.

HE MAY WELL GET THAT.

>> I WAS GOING TO SAY, I HINK THAT'S A SMART MOVE ON HIS PART.

BUT ALSO REMEMBER, HE WAS THE HEAD OF THE REPUBLICAN CONGRESSIONAL COMMITTEE THAT HELPED TAKE BACK THE HOUSE.

HE'S GOT A LOT OF POLITICAL CAPITAL BECAUSE OF THAT.

AND WHOEVER GETS THE NEXT SPEAKER FOR REPUBLICAN, I'M GOING TO GO UT ON A LIMB AND SAY THAT PERSON MAY NOT LAST VERY LONG EITHER.

AND IF EMMER IS NOW SECOND IN COMMAND, HE'S REALLY SET UP REALLY WELL, IF HE WANTS THAT JOB.

>> Cathy: BUT SOMEBODY LIKE JIM JORDAN, CAN YOU IMAGINE TOM MMER BEING IN THE LEADERSHIP MIX THEN?

>> I THINK THAT BECOMES MUCH MORE COMPLICATED AT THIS POINT.

>> Cathy: YEAH.

>> I DO TOO.

ALTHOUGH MY FAVORITE PERSON, ANYBODY'S WHO'S GOT A NAME PATRICK McHENRY, YOU GOTTA GIVE HIM THE JOB OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

WHO'S THE ACTING SPEAKER, YEAH.

>> Cathy: HOW DOES THIS ALL ACTUALLY SHAKE OUT, DO YOU THINK, NEXT WEEK?

>> I DON'T THINK WE KNOW.

>> YEAH.

>> I DON'T THINK ANYONE KNOWS.

I THINK WHAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE IS PROBABLY CYCLING VOTING, IN OTHER WORDS, YOU KNOW, JIM JORDAN WILL COME UP, SCALISE WOULD COME UP, THEY MIGHT, YOU KNOW, I THINK THEY'RE GOING TO STRUGGLE TO GET THE MODERATE REPUBLICANS WHO HAVE VARIOUS REASONS FOR DISTRUSTING BOTH OF THEM.

BY THE WAY, SCALISE IS BATTLING VERY SEVERE CANCER.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> SO THERE ARE DOUBTS ABOUT THAT.

YOU KNOW, McHENRY HAS BEEN MENTIONED AS A REAL POSSIBILITY.

WHEN LIZ CHENEY WAS HERE YESTERDAY, SHE MENTIONED McHENRY AS HER FAVORITE CHOICE.

SO I THINK THIS IS GOING TO BE REAL DRAMA.

SO GRAB YOUR BUCKET OF POPCORN.

GET READY FOR POLITICAL DRAMA.

>> Cathy: I THOUGHT LIZ CHENEY WAS INTERESTING, HER COMMENTS ABOUT KEVIN McCARTHY, THAT HE KIND OF DESERVED WHAT E GOT, IN A SENSE.

>> HE DID.

>> YEAH, THERE ARE A LOT OF REPUBLICANS WHO FEEL THAT WAY, THAT HE REALLY GAVE UP SO MUCH TO THIS RADICAL GROUP AND THAT HE HAD LOST THE CENTER.

HE'D ALSO ALIENATED, YOU KNOW, DEMOCRATS WHO WERE WILLING TO WORK WITH HIM, HE PROBLEM-SOLVER CAUCUS, HE JUST LOST A LOT OF CREDIBILITY.

>> HE LOST THEM TWO WAYS WITH THE DEMOCRATS.

BECAUSE I KNOW SOME REPUBLICANS ARE SAYING, WELL, THE DEMOCRATS COULD HAVE BAILED HIM OUT.

WELL, LISTEN, HE BASICALLY WENT BACK ON A DEAL HE MADE WITH BIDEN A FEW MONTHS AGO ABOUT THE DEBT CEILING.

AND THEN LAST SUNDAY, I CAN'T REMEMBER WHICH ONE OF THE SUNDAY MORNING TALK SHOWS, HE BASICALLY EXCORIATES THE DEMOCRATS AT THIS POINT.

I MEAN, THERE'S NO LOVE LOST BETWEEN HIM AND A LOT OF REPUBLICANS AND WITH THE DEMOCRATS.

HE REALLY GOT IN SOME FACES.

>> Eric: CAN'T THE DEBT LIMIT CEILING DEAL BE REVISITED AS PART OF THE FINAL PACKAGE HERE?

>> MAYBE.

BUT PROBABLY NOT.

I MEAN, ANY LEADER WHO WOULD IMMEDIATELY JUMP IN ON THE, YOU KNOW, KIND OF THE GOVERNMENT SHUTDOWN IS GOING TO HAVE TO MAKE SO MANY COMPROMISES, IT'S GOING O, YOU KNOW, TAKE A VERY VULNERABLE NEW SPEAKER AND FURTHER HAMPEN THEM.

THIS IS A -- HAMPER THEM.

THIS IS A TERRIBLE SITUATION.

YOU WANT A SPEAKER TO COME IN, BUILD UP SOME CREDIBILITY.

AND THIS IS THE OPPOSITE.

THEY'RE GOING TO COME IN, YOU KNOW, BLOOD SPATTERED.

>> athy: WHAT DOES THIS DO TO PUBLIC CONFIDENCE, WHICH IS ALREADY TERRIBLY ERODED IN OUR SYSTEM?

>> WELL, WE CERTAINLY KNOW FROM LOOKING AT SOME OF THE COMMENTS IN TODAY'S PAPER, SOME OF THE POLLS, THAT THIS IS JUST TAKING US INTO A NEW LEVEL IN TERMS OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC'S DISUS GUST WITH CONGRESS -- DISGUST WITH CONGRESS AT THIS POINT.

ON ONE LEVEL OF, GO OUT AND TALK TO PEOPLE ON THE STREET, THEY'RE CONCERNED ABOUT, WHAT, JOBS, HEALTHCARE, INFLATION.

TO THEM, THIS IS JUST A HORRIBLE DISTRACTION AND SOMETHING THAT IS REALLY NOT VERY GOOD FOR THE COUNTRY.

>> Cathy: ALL RIGHT.

GENTLE