>> Cathy: 9 CRYSTAL MINNESOTA POLICE DEPARTMENT DECIDED THIS WEEK TO END ITS FLOCK CAMERA AGREEMENT.

CITIES ACROSS MINNESOTA ARE RESPONDING TO PUBLIC OUTCRY REGARDING DATA PRIVACY, BUT LAW ENFORCEMENT ARGUES THAT LICENSE PLATE READERS ARE NECESSARY TOOLS.

CITIES LIKE SHAKOPEE CONTINUE TO DEBATE THE SSUE.

>> VEHICLE DRIVES BY A PLATE READER AND IT'S A STOLEN VEHICLE.

THE ALERT LIVE-TIME WILL GO TO THE OFFICERS DIRECTLY.

NOW, I THINK T'S REALLY IMPORTANT FOR EVERYBODY TO RECOGNIZE THAT WE ARE HOW MANY SQUARE MILES, 36, 38 SQUARE MILES.

THERE'S 50,000 PEOPLE IN THIS TOWN.

WE'RE A VERY BUSY POLICE DEPARTMENT.

THESE ARE FIVE SIGNIFICANT FELONY LEVEL CRIMES, ONE OF WHICH AN INDIVIDUAL WAS KILLED, WHERE WE MAY BE WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ABLE TO SOLVE THE CRIME WITHOUT THIS TECHNOLOGY.

>> THIS SYSTEM CAN ABSOLUTELY HELP US SOLVE MURDERS.

BUT IF IT'S ABUSED IT AN BE USED TO FACILITATE MURDERS.

>> Cathy: JOINING US RIGHT NOW FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA LAW PROFESSOR WILLIAM MCGEVERAN.

GOOD TO HAVE YOU HERE.

>> HI, GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> Cathy: SO FOR FOLKS NOT UNDERSTANDING THE WHOLE FLOCK THING, SO THERE ARE OF COURSE LICENSE PLATE READERS, THAT'S NOT NEW, WHY IS THIS SENATOR KENT AND WHY ARE PEOPLE SO UPSET ABOUT THIS >> FLOCK HAS BEEN CONTROVERSIAL BECAUSE OF TWO DIFFERENCES FROM THE AUTOMATED LICENSE PLATE READERS WE'VE HAD FOR A WHILE.

ONE IS THERE'S A LOT OF THEM AND TWO IS THAT THEY'RE NETWORKED TOGETHER.

THIS ISN'T JUST ABOUT IN ONE PLACE FOR ONE TIME SEEING ONE LICENSE PLATE, THIS IS ABOUT TRACKING A CAR THROUGH SPACE AND ALLOWS LOCATION TRACKING IN LOTS OF DIFFERENT PLACES.

>> Eric: OW AVAILABLE IS THE DATA TO GROUPS?

>> SO IT DEPENDS ON WHAT DEPARTMENTS SET THEIR OWN RULES AS BUT MANY DEPARTMENTS ROUTINE SHARE THE INFORMATION BACK AND FORTH.

SO YOU'RE FOLLOWING A CAR EVERYWHERE IT GOES, IF YOU HAVE DEPARTMENTS THAT ARE COOPERATING.

>> Cathy: I CAN SEE WHY POLICE PROBABLY LIKE THIS TOOL.

>> URE.

I MEAN, IT'S NOT A QUESTION OF NEVER USING IT, IT'S A QUESTION OF MAKING SURE THAT IT'S BEING USED IN APPROPRIATE WAYS BUT THERE'S A LOT OF SITUATIONS WHERE THEY'VE NOT BEEN.

THERE'S DOZENS OF CASES OF OFFICERS USING THE LICENSE PLATE READING DATABASE FOR PERSONAL REASONS LIKE LOOKING AFTER AN EX.

THERE'S LOTS OF SHARING WITH IMMIGRATION AUTHORITIES BY JURISDICTIONS IN STATES WHERE THEY'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO DO THAT INCLUDING THE STAR TRIBUNE REPORTED HERE IN MINNESOTA.

>> Eric: WHAT YPES OF INFORMATION IS GATHERED?

>> SO IF IT'S BEING DONE PROPERLY IT'S SUPPOSED TO TAKE BASICALLY A QUICK PHOTO OF THE BACK OF YOUR CAR.

IT'S READING YOUR LICENSE PLATE AND PUTTING THAT DATA IN, AND THEN IT WILL ALSO NOTICE SORT OF THE MAKE AND MODEL OF THE CAR, SCRATCHES, BUMPER STICKERS.

THERE ARE REPORTS THAT SOME OF THE CAMERAS HAVE WIDER ANGLES AND ARE SEEING MORE THAN THAT BUT THE FOCUS IS ON THE LICENSE PLATE.

>> Cathy: WAS THIS USED IN OPERATION METRO SURGE >> YEAH, SO YOU'RE REMEMBERING THAT STAR TRIBUNE CASE WHERE I.C.E.

DID COOPERATE WITH LOCAL JURISDICTIONS TO IND CARS THAT WERE ASSOCIATED WITH PEOPLE THAT THEY WERE LOOKING FOR.

>> Cathy: THAT FEELS LIKE IT'S ILLEGAL.

>> I MEAN, IT'S BEING INVESTIGATED NOW AS WE UNDERSTAND BUT, YEAH, YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE COOPERATING WITH IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT BUT IT'S INTERJURISDICTIONAL, CALL TO A DEPARTMENT, WOULD YOU PLEASE RUN THIS PLATE FOR ME AND THE RULES IN A LOT OF SITUATIONS ARE NOT STRICT ENOUGH ABOUT WHEN THE OFFICERS ARE ALLOWED TO LOOK AND FOR WHY.

THAT'S REALLY THE OBJECTION THAT PEOPLE HAVE.

>> Eric: THE RULES ARE SET UP CITY BY CITY COUNTY BY COUNTY?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> Eric: IS THERE A STATE COMPONENT TO THIS?

THE STATE HAS RULES ABOUT WHAT JURISDICTIONS ARE SUPPOSED TO DO AND FLOCK HAS GUIDELINES AND BEST PRACTICES BUT THE REAL RULES COME IN EACH INDIVIDUAL DEPARTMENT.

>> Cathy: BOY, PEOPLE RE SO UPSET ABOUT THESE FLOCK CAMERAS, WHAT DO YOU THINK'S BEHIND THAT?

>> FLOCK CAMERAS ARE NOT THE MOST SERIOUS PRIVACY CONCERN WHEN IT COMES TO LAW ENFORCEMENT.

YOU KNOW, LAW ENFORCEMENT'S USING FACIAL RECOGNITION, THEY'RE BUYING INFORMATION FROM DATA BROKERS.

YOU KNOW, THEY'RE USING TELEPHONE, CELL PHONE LOCATION TRACKING.

BUT YOU SEE A FLOCK CAMERA, WHEN YOU DRIVE BY IT IT'S THAT VERY DISTINCTIVE LOOK AND, NEAR MY HOUSE IN ST.

PAUL THERE'S SIGNS, PICKET SIGNS AROUND ONE OF THE REMAINING FLOCK CAMERAS WHICH IS SCHEDULED TO BE TAKEN DOWN BUT PEOPLE SEE THEM AND MAKES THEM MAD.

>> Eric: ONE OF THE OLD ARGUMENTS ABOUT THIS WAS THAT YOU COULD HAVE YOUR BROTHER DRIVING YOUR CAR.

>> YES.

, AND YOU HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT AND YET OU GET WHATEVER CONSEQUENCES THERE ARE.

>> THAT'S ABSOLUTELY ANOTHER ISSUE, TRACKING CARS NOT PEOPLE AND MISTAKES HAVE HAPPENED.

>> Cathy: DO YOU THINK STATE LAWMAKERS MAY WANT TO WEIGH IN ON THIS?

I UNDERSTAND LOCAL JURISDICTIONS ARE BAILING OUT BUT I WONDER IF THIS MAY OPEN THE DOOR FOR STATE ACTION.

>> THERE HAVE BEEN LEGISLATORS TALKING ABOUT THIS SAYING THEY WANT TO LOOK AT THIS IN THE COMING SESSION.

THE RULES REALLY NEED TO BE STRICTER AND THEY NEED TO BE ENFORCEABLE BY DEPARTMENTS.

AND I THINK THERE'S A LOT THAT STATE AWMAKERS COULD DO IF THEY DECIDE TODAY ENTER THIS FRAY.

IT'S CERTAINLY BECOME CONTROVERSIAL ALL AROUND THE COUNTRY.

>> Eric: ARE WE PART OF A NATIONWIDE TREND HERE?

>> YES.

>> Eric: WHAT'S THE NATIONAL PICTURE?

>> ABSOLUTELY, YOU'RE SEEING PEOPLE VANDALIZING AND PRETTIESTING AGAINST FLOCK CAMERAS ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY, CAMERAS BY THE COMPANY IN 49 STATES.

>> Cathy: THEY MUST BE MAKING A LOT OF MONEY OFF THIS.

>> THEY HAVE DOMINATED THIS MARKET.

THEY DIDN'T USED TO BUT THEY HAVE COLLECTED NOT MONOPOLY BUT NEAR DOMINANCE IN THE MARKET.

>> Eric: HOW WAS IT SOLD ORIGINALLY TO SO MANY PLACES AROUND THE COUNTRY?

WHAT'S THE SALES PITCH >> SO ONCE YOU STARTED TO HAVE A BUNCH OF PLACES USE IT, A BUNCH OF OTHER PLACES SAID THAT WOULD BE GREAT IF WE COULD BE CONNECTED TO THOSE OTHER DEPARTMENTS.

THEY HAVE AN INTERESTING PAYMENT STRUCTURE WHERE THEY OWN THE THINGS AND THE DEPARTMENTS ARE RENTING THEM.

THOSE WERE VERY APPEALING AND MASSIVE SPENDING ON MARKETING.

THERE WAS EARLY INVESTORS THAT REALLY HELPED THEM MARKET GO TO ALL THE CONVENTIONS, YOU KNOW, REALLY SELL TO THE PEOPLE WHO DO PROCUREMENT FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT.

>> Cathy: WOW, INTERESTING.

ALL RIGHT.

IT WAS INTERESTING CONVERSATION.

THANK YOU SO MUCH, WE APPRECIATE YOU BEING HERE.

>> Eric: THANKS, PROFESSOR.

>> THANK YOU