♪ >> "ALMANAC" IS A PRODUCTION OF TWIN CITIES PBS FOR THE STATIONS OF MINNESOTA PUBLIC TELEVISION ASSOCIATION.

>> CATHY: THIS WEEK BEGAN WITH NATIONAL ATTENTION ON MINNESOTA AS THE FOCUS ON FRAUD FACTORED INTO GOVERNOR WALZ ANNOUNCING ON MONDAY THAT HE WOULD NOT SEEK A THIRD TERM.

BUT BY WEDNESDAY MORNING, DEADLY FORCE BY AN I.C.E.

AGENT ON A STREET IN SOUTH MINNEAPOLIS BECAME THE FOCUS.

AT THE WEEK'S END, STATE AND NATIONAL OFFICIALS ARE AT ODDS ABOUT THE INVESTIGATION INTO THE SHOOTING DEATH OF MINNEAPOLIS RESIDENT RENEE NICOLE GOOD.

WE'LL TRY TO PROVIDE CONTEXT AND ANALYSIS ON BOTH STORIES TONIGHT.

MARY LAHAMMER HAS BEEN TRACKING ALL OF IT UP AT THE CAPITOL, INCLUDING THE WALZ DECISION TO NOT SEEK A THIRD TERM.

>> Mary: GOVERNOR WALZ ADDRESSES WHY HE DECIDED TO END HIS ATTEMPT AT RE-ELECTION, AS HIS FAMILY WEIGHS IN ON THE ATTACKS AGAINST THEM.

>> THAT IS FRICKIN' EVIL.

AND EVERY ONE OF YOU IN THIS ROOM KNOWS IT'S EVIL.

>> Mary: THAT'S COMING UP ON "ALMANAC."

♪ >> "ALMANAC" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY MEMBERS OF THIS PUBLIC TELEVISION STATION.

SUPPORT IS ALSO PROVIDED BY... GREAT RIVER ENERGY: PROVIDING WHOLESALE POWER TO 1.7 MILLION PEOPLE THROUGH ITS MEMBER-OWNER COOPERATIVES AND CUSTOMERS.

DELTA DENTAL OF MINNESOTA FOUNDATION: IMPROVING ORAL HEALTH AND HELPING COMMUNITIES THRIVE.

DELTADENTALMN.ORG/TPT.

AND EDUCATION MINNESOTA: THE VOICE FOR PROFESSIONAL EDUCATORS AND STUDENTS THROUGHOUT THE STATE.

MORE AT EDUCATIONMINNESOTA.ORG.

>> CATHY: WE HAVE A VERY FULL SHOW FOR YOU TONIGHT, AND IT MIGHT BE HEAVY AT TIMES.

AS MOST OF YOU WATCHING AND MOST OF THE COUNTRY KNOWS, WEDNESDAY MORNING ON PORTLAND AVENUE IN SOUTH MINNEAPOLIS, THE PRESENCE OF I.C.E.

AGENTS TURNED DEADLY FOR 37-YEAR-OLD MINNESOTA RESIDENT RENEE NICOLE GOOD.

THERE ARE COMPETING NARRATIVES.

MULTIPLE CELL PHONE VIDEOS TAKEN BY BYSTANDERS SEEM TO TELL A DIFFERENT STORY ABOUT THE DEATH OF RENEE GOOD.

THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS A DIFFERENT VERSION ABOUT WHY AN I.C.E.

AGENT SHOT AND KILLED GOOD THROUGH THE WINDSHIELD OF HER VEHICLE.

EARLIER TODAY A VIDEO WAS RELEASED THAT IS FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE I.C.E.

AGENT WHO SHOT THE WOMAN.

WAS THE USE OF DEADLY FORCE WARRANTED ON WEDNESDAY MORNING?

SHOULD THE INVESTIGATION BE DONE IN PARTNERSHIP BETWEEN THE FBI AND THE MINNESOTA BCA?

WE ARE GOING TO SPEND THE MAJORITY OF THE SHOW TONIGHT HEARING FROM EXPERTS AND ELECTED OFFICIALS ABOUT THESE QUESTIONS AND HOW THE COMMUNITY, STATE AND NATION CAN TRY TO MOVE AHEAD.

>> ERIC: MINNEAPOLIS POLICE CHIEF BRIAN O'HARA WILL JOIN US SHORTLY, WE'LL ALSO HEAR FROM A LEGAL EXPERT ON USE OF FORCE BY LAW ENFORCEMENT, TALK WITH ELECTED OFFICIALS WHO REPRESENT SOUTH MINNEAPOLIS, CHECK IN WITH A POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSOR, AND A POLITICAL PANEL WILL ROUND OUT THE HOUR.

BUT, FIRST, HERE'S A QUICK LOOK AT SOME OF THIS WEEK'S NEWS, GATHERED BY "ALMANAC" REPORTER MARY LAHAMMER.

>> NO!

NO!

SHAME!

[ SHOTS ] >> SHAME!

>> THE CITY OF MINNEAPOLIS CONFIRMING, THIS WAS A SHOOTING INVOLVING FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT.

>> WHAT WE DO KNOW IS NAH A 37-YEAR-OLD WOMAN IS DEAD AND THAT SHE WAS SHOT BY I.C.E.

>> GO HOME!

YOU'RE NOT WELCOME HERE!

[ INDISTINCT CONVERSATIONS ] >> I.C.E.

GO HOME!

[ SIRENS ] >> I.C.E.

GO HOME!

>> BACK UP?

>> WHAT IS THAT FOR?

>> SAY HER NAME.

RENEE GOOD!

RENEE GOOD!

RENEE GOOD!

RENEE GOOD!

>> HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE DID SHOW UP AT THE SCENE WHERE THAT SHOOTING TOOK PLACE TO REMEMBER RENEE GOOD.

>> I.C.E.

OUT NOW!

I.C.E.

OUT NOW.

[ CHANTING ] >> IT IS A DAY WHERE MINNESOTANS HAVE COME TOGETHER, YET AGAIN TO MOURN, TO GRIEVE, TO LAMENT, TO EXPRESS RIGHTEOUS ANGER AND RAGE.

BUT TO DEMAND JUSTICE.

>> TODAY WE COME TOGETHER TO REJECT DIVISION AND FEAR.

TODAY WE COME TOGETHER TO SAY NO TO VIOLENCE.

THIS IS NOT A WAR ZONE.

THIS IS OUR NEIGHBORHOOD.

>> AND WHAT'S SO WONDERFUL ABOUT THE STATE OF MINNESOTA IS THAT IT'S SO DIVERSE AND ALL OF US ARE FROM ALL DIFFERENT PLACES.

[ Cheers ] >> TODAY I CAN GIVE YOU A WORD WHICH WILL CONTINUE TO SUSTAIN YOU IN THIS WORK.

>> AMEN!

>> THIS IS BUT THE BEGINNING OF WHAT WE HAVE BEEN CALLED TO DO, AND, PEOPLE, I WANT TO TELL YOU TODAY THAT FEAR IS A TOOL OF THE OPPRESSOR!

>> YES!

>> WE WILL NOT BE SWAYED.

WE WILL NOT FEAR.

HOPE IS THE ANTIDOTE TO FEAR, AND WE, DEAR PEOPLE, WILL NOT LOSE HOPE!

>> I.C.E.

OUT NOW!

[ CHANTING ] I.C.E.

OUT NOW!

I.C.E.

OUT NOW!

I.C.E.

OUT NOW!

I.C.E.

OUT NOW!

I.C.E.

OUT NOW!

6 >> I THINK IT'S CLEAR TO EVERYONE, AS THEY SAW THIS, THAT IT FEELS NOW THAT MINNESOTA HAS BEEN TAKEN OUT OF THE INVESTIGATION.

>> THEY HAVE NOT BEEN CUT OUT.

THEY DON'T HAVE ANY JURISDICTION IN THIS INVESTIGATION.

>> IT FEELS VERY VERY DIFFICULT THAT WE WILL GET A FAIR OUTCOME.

AND I SAY THAT ONLY BECAUSE PEOPLE IN POSITIONS OF POWER HAVE ALREADY PASSED JUDGMENT, FROM THE PRESIDENT TO HE VICE PRESIDENT TO KRISTI NOEM, HAVE STOOD AND TOLD YOU THINGS THAT ARE VERIFIABLY FALSE.

>> THIS WAS AN ATTACK ON FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT.

THIS WAS AN ATTACK ON LAW AND ORDER.

THIS WAS AN TTACK ON THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

♪ ♪ >> CATHY: DEALING WITH THE AFTERMATH OF A CIVILIAN DEATH AT THE HANDS OF LAW ENFORCEMENT IS NOT NEW TO THE CITY OF MINNEAPOLIS.

AFTER GEORGE FLOYD'S MURDER MORE THAN FIVE YEARS AGO, THE TWIN CITIES ERUPTED IN PROTESTS THAT TURNED VIOLENT.

SO FAR, VIGILS AND PROTESTS THIS WEEK HAVE NOT REACHED THAT LEVEL.

JOINING US WITH MORE IS MINNEAPOLIS POLICE CHIEF BRIAN O'HARA.

THANKS FOR TAKING THE TIME.

>> SURE.

>> Cathy: I'M CURIOUS HERE, WHAT WAS THE ROLE THE MPD THE DAY OF THE SHOOTING?

DID YOU HAVE ANY IDEA THIS ACTION WAS TAKING PLACE?

>> WE HAD NO IDEA.

I GOT A TEXT MESSAGE, I HEARD ON THE RADIO THAT THERE WERE SHOTS FIRED, POSSIBLY INVOLVING FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT.

AND I IMMEDIATELY RESPONDED WITH OTHER OFFICERS DIRECTLY TO THE SCENE.

AND, SO, SOME OF UR OFFICERS ASSISTED AS CPR ND FIRST AID WAS BEING PROVIDED TO THE WOMAN WHO DIED.

THEY WENT TO THE HOSPITAL WITH HER.

AND STAYED THERE.

AND STAYED THERE WITH HER.

AND THE OTHER OFFICERS, INCLUDING MYSELF, THEN TRIED TO ESTABLISH, YOU KNOW, WHAT HAPPENED, SOME SENSE OF WHAT HAPPENED, AND SECURE A CRIME SCENE SO THAT EVIDENCE COULD BE PRESERVED.

>> Eric: WHAT'S THE RULE, THE RULES OR MPD AND A SANCTUARY CITY?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY WE DON'T PARTICIPATE IN IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT AT ALL.

WE DON'T ASK PEOPLE BOUT THEIR IMMIGRATION STATUSSINGS, WE DON'T TURN PEOPLE OVER, WE DON'T DO ANY OF THOSE THINGS.

IMMIGRATION STATUS.

LOCAL POLICE DON'T HAVE THAT AUTHORITY TO ENFORCE IMMIGRATION LAW IN OUR COUNTRY.

THAT'S NOT HOW THIS WORKS.

BUT WE DO WORK WITH FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT FOR OTHER THINGS, TO GO AFTER VIOLENT CRIMINALS, TO GO AFTER GANG MEMBERS, PEOPLE SMUGGLING DRUGS, THAT KIND OF THING.

>> Cathy: LET'S TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE TRAINING, IF WE COULD FOR JUST A MOMENT.

I.C.E.

AGENTS OBVIOUSLY RECEIVED -- RECEIVE SIMILAR TRAINING TO WHAT YOUR FOLKS RECEIVE, I WOULD THINK, RIGHT?

>> I WOULD NOT SAY THAT.

>> Cathy: YOU WOULD NOT SAY THAT?

>> CERTAINLY IN MINNESOTA, I THINK PROBABLY HAS SOME OF THE HIGHEST STANDARDS TO BE A POLICE OFFICER IN THE COUNTRY.

AND IT'S MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THE TRAINING THAT AT LEAST NEW I.C.E.

AGENTS ARE RECEIVING TODAY IS SUBSTANTIALLY LESS THAN EVEN WHAT THEY HAD BEEN GETTING UNTIL THIS PAST YEAR.

THAT'S MY UNDERSTANDING.

>> Cathy: WHEN YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THE VIDEO, SAY, EVEN OF SOME OF THE PROTESTS AT THE WHIPPLE BUILDING AFTER THE SHOOTING, THE AGENTS ARE GETTING UP RIGHT INTO THE FACE OF PROTESTERS AND SPRAYING THEM WITH SOME SORT OF A CHEMICAL.

I MEAN, LITERALLY WITHIN INCHES.

>> YEAH.

>> Cathy: WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU?

>> I MEAN, IT LOOKS CRAZY TO ME.

A LOT OF THE THINGS THAT WE SEE HAPPENING, IT'S LIKE POLICING 101.

AT BEST, THESE ARE POOR TACTICIAN THAT ARE UNSAFE, THEY ARE NOT, YOU KNOW, TRYING TO -- THEY DON'T APPEAR TO BE TAKING MEASURES, BOTH TO PROTECT THEIR OWN SAFETY BUT ALSO TO TRY AND DE-ESCALATE THESE SITUATIONS.

>> Eric: THERE WILL BE PROTESTS TOMORROW, SATURDAY, ONE OF THE BIGs ONES WILL BE AT POWDERHORN PARK.

BIGGEST ONES.

COULD YOU GIVE US SOME IDEA OF HOW YOU RECOMMEND THE PROTESTERS CONDUCT HEMSELVES?

>> THERE'S A NUMBER OF PROTESTS AND MARCHES HAPPENING TOMORROW, FOR SURE, NOT JUST IN MINNEAPOLIS, AROUND THE METRO AND AROUND THE COUNTRY.

THE NUMBER ONE THING I'D ASK, I'VE BEEN ASKING OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS TO SAY THE SAME, IS JUST, PLEASE, DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO REMAIN PEACEFUL.

YOU KNOW, WE WANT TO ENSURE THAT PEOPLE ARE ABLE TO EXERCISE THEIR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS, BUT WE JUST NEED FOLKS TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT SAFELY AND LAWFULLY.

WE'VE HAD PLENTY OF MARCHES, INCLUDING TONIGHT, THERE WERE TWO MARCHES NEAR THE SITE WHERE THIS HAPPENED, EVERYTHING AT THE SITE IS PEACEFUL, THERE'S POLICE OFFICERS THERE INTERACTING WITH PEOPLE FROM THE COMMUNITY, THERE'S BEEN NO ISSUES WHATSOEVER.

>> Cathy: WANT TO GO BACK TO TRAINING HERE FOR JUST A SECOND, IF I COULD.

I'M WONDERING, WHEN YOU SAW THE VIDEOS, AS A COP WHO'S BEEN IN THE BUSINESS NOW FOR SOME 25 YEARS, WHAT DID YOU SEE IN THOSE VIDEOS, ESPECIALLY THE VIDEO FROM THE PERSPECTIVE, EVIDENTLY IT'S BEEN AUTHENTICATED, THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE ACTUAL I.C.E.

AGENT WITH A CELL PHONE IN ONE HAND AND A GUN IN ANOTHER?

>> YEAH.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO TELL YOU.

I MEAN, I THINK IT'S CRAZY THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE ON A STOP, HOLDING A CELL PHONE LIKE THAT.

FOR MANY YEARS, FOR DECADES IN THIS COUNTRY, POLICE TRAINING, POLICE POLICY HAS BEEN TO TRY AND MINIMIZE RISK TO THE OFFICER.

YOU DO TRAFFIC STOPS, YOU APPROACH THEM IN A CERTAIN WAY, YOU TRY AND MINIMIZE THE RISK TO THE OFFICER, AS WELL AS TO EVERYONE IN THE COMMUNITY.

>> Eric: DO YOU HAVE A CLEAR PICTURE OF WHAT THE FEDERAL MISSION IS?

>> I DON'T.

I DON'T.

I MEAN, I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE AROUND THE COUNTRY SEE THE SAME THINGS THAT WE SEE HERE.

AND, REALLY, AT BEST ARE SAYING THE SAME THINGS.

THEY'RE JUST QUESTIONING, YOU KNOW, THE METHODS THAT ARE BEING TAKEN TO GO ABOUT CONDUCTING FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT.

>> Cathy: GOT A QUESTION HERE FOR YOU, TOO.

NOW, THE GOVERN HAS THE NATIONAL GUARD ON STANDBY.

>> YES.

>> Cathy: WHAT'S THE COORDINATION BETWEEN THE GUARD AND MPD AND OTHER LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES, IF THAT WERE TO BE -- IF SOME -- IF THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN CALLED INTO ACTION?

>> WELL, I WOULD SAY MINNEAPOLIS HAS PROBABLY MORE EXPERIENCE WITH THIS THAN THEY WOULD PREFER TO.

BUT I'M THANKFUL THAT THE GUARD IS ON STANDBY LIKE THIS.

BECAUSE THERE CERTAINLY IS POTENTIAL, YOU KNOW, THAT AN EMERGENCY CAN ESCALATE VERY VERY QUICKLY.

AND CERTAINLY JUST TO ENSURE EVERYONE'S SAFETY, THE SAFETY OF THE CITY, THE SAFETY OF THE COMMUNITY, I'M THANKFUL THAT THE GUARD IS AVAILABLE.

WE HAVE DIRECT COMMUNICATION WITH LEADERSHIP IN THE MINNESOTA NATIONAL GUARD, AND I FEEL VERY CONFIDENT AND COMFORTABLE THAT IF WE NEEDED THEM, THEY WOULD PERFORM, YOU KNOW, A MISSION DIRECTLY IN SUPPORT OF WHAT WE NEED.

WHICH WOULD BE SECURING CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE, YOU KNOW, THE FEDERAL COURT FACILITIES LIKE THAT, IF WE NEEDED TRAFFIC CONTROL FOR WHATEVER REASON, CERTAIN AREAS, THEY WOULD HELP LIKE THAT.

I FEEL VERY VERY CONFIDENT WITH THE MINNESOTA NATIONAL GUARD IF WE NEED THEM.

>> Cathy: I'VE GOT A LAST QUESTION FOR YOU.

SADLY, JUST NOT MORE THAN A COUPLE DAYS BEFORE THE SHOOTING -- >> THE DAY BEFORE.

>> Cathy: -- UTD SAID PUBLICLY YOU WERE WORRIED ABOUT SOMEONE GETTING SHOT AND KILLED.

I MEAN, LITERALLY.

>> YUP.

>> Cathy: SO TELL ME HOW YOU'RE FEELING RIGHT NOW IN TERMS OF MOVING FORWARD.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I'M PARTICULARLY SCARED THAT SOMETHING ELSE COULD HAPPEN, THAT IT JUST SEEMS LIKE THERE'S SO MANY PEOPLE THAT WANT THINGS TO CONTINUE TO ESCALATE.

I'M WORRIED THAT THERE MIGHT BE PEOPLE ON BOTH SIDES, BOTH EXTREMES THAT WANT THINGS TO ESCALATE HERE.

YOU KNOW, WHEN I'VE SAID MANY MANY TIMES, INCLUDING THE DAY BEFORE, I WAS AFRAID OF A TRAGEDY, I WOULD HOPE EVERYONE COULD RECOGNIZE THAT THE LOSS OF A HUMAN LIFE IS A TRAGEDY.

AND IN THAT SITUATION, NO ONE WINS.

I DON'T KNOW WHY WE'RE NOT TRYING TO MINIMIZE THE RISK OF THAT HAPPENING.

BECAUSE IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE WE'RE TRYING TO MINIMIZE THE RISK OF THAT HAPPENING AGAIN.

>> Eric: REALLY APPRECIATE YOU COMING OVER.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> Cathy: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, APPRECIATE IT.

WE'RE GOING TO SWITCH OUT GUESTS RIGHT NOW.

WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK FOR A CONVERSATION WITH A LEGAL EXPERT.

STICK AROUND.

>> ERIC: WE CONTINUE THE CONVERSATION ON THE THE LEGAL STANDARD FOR USE OF DEADLY FORCE BY LAW ENFORCEMENT.

SHANNON PRINCE IS AN ATTORNEY BASED IN ATLANTA WHO HAS FOLLOWED CASES NATIONWIDE.

SHE IS ONE OF MANY EXPERTS WE TALKED WITH FOLLOWING GEORGE FLOYD'S MURDER.

WELCOME BACK, THANKS FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> Eric: AS IT APPLIES TO THIS CASE, ARE THE RULES ON DEADLY FORCE PRETTY CUT AND DRIED?

>> WELL, WHEN IT COMES O WHEN AN OFFICER CAN USE DEADLY FORCE, THE KEY THING IS THAT THERE MUST BE AN IMMINENT RISK OF SEVERE BODILY HARM OR DEATH, EITHER TO THE OFFICER OR TO SOMEONE ELSE.

AND WHEN WE'RE ASSESSING THE REASONABILITY OF THE OFFICER'S BELIEF THAT THERE WAS THAT RISK PRESENT, WE HAVE TO LOOK AT IT THROUGH THE LENS OF THE SUPREME COURT CASE FROM JUST LAST YEAR, BARNES V FELIX.

THAT CASE HELD THAT WHEN YOU'RE ASSESSING REASONABILITY AND THE PERCEPTION OF THE OFFICER, YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT NOT JUST WHAT'S CALLED THE MOMENT OF THREAT, BUT WHAT THE COURT TERMS "THE TOTALITY OF CIRCUMSTANCES."

HOW AN INTERACTION BEGAN, WHAT THE SUSPECT DID, WHAT THE POLICE OFFICER DID, INCLUDING IF HE ESCALATED THE SITUATION.

AND THAT BECOMES VERY INTERESTING WHEN WE THINK OF SOME COMMENTS THAT VICE PRESIDENT VANCE HAS MADE.

HE SAID, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT IN THIS ITUATION, THIS PARTICULAR OFFICER HAD BEEN RAMMED BY A CAR IN THE LINE OF DUTY SIX MONTHS AGO, THAT HE MAY HAVE SENSITIVITIES TO THE RISKS POSED BY VEHICLES, BUT EVEN UNDER THE EXPANDED GAZE OF BARNES V FELIX, WE'RE NOT ALLOWED TO EXPAND OUR GAZE SO FAR THAT WE JUDGE WHETHER AN OFFICER'S PERCEPTION OF REASONABILITY IN THE LIGHT OF WHAT HE EXPERIENCED SIX MONTHS AGO, IN THE LIGHT OF WHAT HE ALLEGEDLY SUFFERED AT THE HANDS OF A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT DRIVER.

ALSO, REASONABILITY IS AN OBJECTIVE STANDARD.

SO IF VICE PRESIDENT VANCE IS SUGGESTING THAT THIS WAS A TRAUMATIZED OFFICER RATHER THAN A REASONABLE OFFICER, THAT THIS OFFICER'S ACTIONS WERE ANIMATED BY A UNIQUE SENSITIVITY TO THE RISK OF CARS, HE'S NOT HELPING HIS CASE.

>> Cathy: SO, I WONDER HERE, IS THERE -- ARE YOU SAYING THAT THERE IS A CERTAIN LEVEL OF IMMUNITY WHEN IT COMES TO EXCESSIVE FORCE SUITS FOR I.C.E.

AGENTS?

WHAT WOULD THAT BE?

>> SO, IT'S DISTURBING THAT VICE PRESIDENT VANCE, HIMSELF A LAWYER, HAS SUGGESTED THAT FEDERAL AGENTS WORKING IN THE CONTEXT OF FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT, LIKE AN I.C.E.

AGENT, HAVE ABSOLUTE IMMUNITY.

THAT'S NOT CORRECT.

THAT'S NOT HOW OUR DEMOCRACY WORKS.

BOTH STATE AND FEDERAL PROSECUTORS CAN BRING CHARGES IN THIS CONTEXT.

STATE PROSECUTORS COULD BRING CHARGES LIKE MANSLAUGHTER IN VIOLATION OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT UNDER THE FOURTH AMENDMENT, TO BE FREE OF EXCESSIVE FORCE.

HOWEVER, IF A STATE PROSECUTOR WERE TO BRING SUCH CHARGES, IT'S LIKELY THAT AN I.C.E.

AGENT, AS A FEDERAL OFFICER, WOULD MOVE TO HAVE THE CASE BROUGHT O FEDERAL COURT WHERE THEY COULD INVOKE THE SUPREMACY CLAUSE IMMUNITY.

BUT THE THING ABOUT SUPREMACY CLAUSE IMMUNITY IS, IT'S NOT AUTOMATIC.

YOU HAVE TO MEET TWO CRITERIA.

THE FIRST IS THAT YOU COMMITTED THE ACTION IN THE COURSE OF YOUR JOB.

THAT'S EASY.

BUT THE SECOND CRITERIA IS THAT YOUR ACTIONS WERE REASONABLE.

AND THAT IS SUBJECT TO DEBATE.

WHERE THE FACTS ARE IN CONFLICT AS TO THE REASONABILITY OF AN ACTION, IT MAY BE THAT A PROSECUTION IS ALLOWED TO GO FORWARD.

ALSO, FEDERAL PROSECUTORS COULD BRING A CHARGE OF DEPRIVATION OF RIGHTS UNDER THE COLOR OF LAW.

NOW, THAT'S A HARD CHARGE TO GET A CONVICTION ON BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO PROVE BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT THAT SOMEONE WOEFULLY -- WILLFULLY DEPRIVED ANOTHER PERSON OF THEIR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS.

AND IN THIS CASE, THE OFFICER COULD SAY THAT HE DIDN'T SEEK TO WILLFULLY DEPRIVE >> Mary: GOOD OF HER -- >> Mary: GOOD OF HER RIGHT TO BE FREE OF EXCESSIVE FORCE, THAT HIS ONLY GOAL WAS TO DEFEND HIS OWN LIFE.

>> Eric: GO AHEAD, FINISH UP.

>> OH, SURE.

SO IT'S ALSO POSSIBLE FOR THE FAMILY TO SEEK JUSTICE IN CIVIL COURT BY BRINGING A LAWSUIT AGAINST THE OFFICER.

BUT IT'S LIKELY THAT THE OFFICER WOULD BE SHELTERED BY QUALIFIED IMMUNITY, WHICH HOLDS THAT IF THERE'S NOT A PREVIOUS CASE IN WHICH AN OFFICER WAS FOUND LIABLE UNDER ALMOST EXACTLY THE SAME FACTS THAT OFFICER WOULD BE PROTECTED BY QUALIFIED IMMUNITY.

SO IT'S DIFFICULT TO GET A VERDICT AGAINST A FEDERAL OFFICER, BUT BY NO MEANS DO THEY HAVE ABSOLUTE IMMUNITY.

>> Eric: UNLIKE THE GEORGE FLOYD CASE, THIS HAS MULTIPLE MULTIPLE VIDEO STREAMS FROM CELL PHONE CAMERAS.

I WONDER HOW THAT'S GOING TO PLAY INTO WHATEVER HAPPENS NEXT.

>> WHEN WE ASSESS THE REASONABILITY OF AN OFFICER'S ACTIONS, WE AREN'T ASKING THEM TO ACT FROM THE BENEFIT OF HINDSIGHT.

SO IT CAN BE TEMPTING TO LOOK AT ALL THE CAMERAS WE HAVE NOW AND TO THINK, WELL, IF THE OFFICER SAW THIS, IF THE OFFICER SAW THAT, HE WOULD HAVE DONE SOMETHING DIFFERENTLY.

BUT THAT OFFICER IN THE MOMENT WASN'T LOOKING AT THE SCENE FROM MULTIPLE ANGLES.

WE CAN HEAR NOW MISS GOOD'S MOTHER SAY THAT SHE AS NOT A PROTESTER OR MISS GOOD'S WIFE SAY THAT SHE WAS AT THE SCENE AS A LEGAL OBSERVER.

EVEN IF EITHER OF THOSE THINGS TURN OUT TO BE TRUE, ARGUABLY, IT SHOULDN'T MATTER BECAUSE IT'S NOT RELATED TO THE INFORMATION THAT THE OFFICER HAD AT THE TIME.

SO WHAT THIS OFFICER IS GOING TO BE JUDGED ON IS NOT HOW HE WOULD HAVE ACTED IF HE HAD THE BENEFIT OF THE KNOWLEDGE THAT WE HAVE AFTER THE FACT, IT'S WHETHER HE ACTED IN A AY THAT COMPORTED WITH HIS TRAINING.

>> Cathy: THANK YOU.

I HAVE A QUESTION, AND IT'S IN REFERENCE TO THE INVESTIGATION.

I BELIEVE THAT SECRETARY NOEM HAD SAID THAT -- OF COURSE, AS YOU KNOW -- THE BCA HAS BEEN SHUT OUT OF THE INVESTIGATION, THE FBI IS TAKING IT ON, AND I THINK SECRETARY NOEM HAS SAID THAT THE STATE DOES NOT HAVE JURISDICTION.

BUT RICHARD PAYNTER, U OF M PROFESSOR, FORMER ETHICS EXPERT IN THE WHITE HOUSE, SAID THAT THERE IS NO FEDERAL STATUTE OR OTHER LEGAL PRINCIPLE THAT BARS MINNESOTA, THE STATE, FROM INVESTIGATING.

IS THAT CORRECT?

>> THAT IS CORRECT.

BOTH THE STATE AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAVE JURISDICTION IN THIS CASE.

BOTH THE STATE AND FEDERAL PROSECUTORS CAN BRING CHARGES, BUT THE WAY PROSECUTORS DETERMINE IF CHARGES ARE TO BE BROUGHT IS BY REVIEWING THE EVIDENCE.

SO EVEN THOUGH THE FBI HAS CUT THE STATE OUT OF ITS INVESTIGATION, THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THE STATE CAN'T BRING AN INVESTIGATION OF ITS OWN.

NOW, THAT INVESTIGATION WILL BE HINDERED BY THE FACT THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, EVIDENCE FROM THE SCENE, LIKE MISS GOOD'S CAR, THE SHELL CASINGS, ARE IN POSSESSION OF THE FBI, AND THOSE THINGS NEED TO BE SUBJECTED TO FORENSIC ANALYSIS.

BUT HENNEPIN COUNTY ATTORNEY MARY MORIARTY AND STATE ATTORNEY GENERAL KEITH ELLISON HAVE INVITED THE PUBLIC TO COME FORWARD WITH EVIDENCE IN ITS CUSTODY, FOR EXAMPLE, ANY FURTHER CELL PHONE CAMERA VIDEOS, AND SUBMIT IT DIRECTLY TO THE STATE.

AND THEY SAY THAT IF THE STATE CAN LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE IN ITS POSSESSION AND GET ENOUGH CLARITY ON WHETHER OR NOT TO BRING CHARGES, IT WILL PROCEED ACCORDINGLY.

>> Cathy: ALL RIGHT.

>> Eric: SHANNON PRINCE, THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR EXPERTISE, REALLY APPRECIATE YOU STOPPING BY.

>> Cathy: WE'LL HAVE YOU BACK.

THANK YOU.

>> Eric: THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Eric: ON FRIDAY MORNING, STATE AND FEDERAL OFFICIALS CALLED ON THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO WORK WITH MINNESOTA' BUREAU OF CRIMINAL APPREHENSION IN THE INVESTIGATION OF THE DEADLY SHOOTING.

>> IF IT'S NOT A PROBLEM TO HAVE ADDITIONAL PEOPLE AT THE TABLE THAT HAVE TRANSPARENCY INTO THE PROCESS AND HAVE RUN THESE INVESTIGATIONS BEFORE, THEN WHY NOT INCLUDE THEM IN THE PROCESS?

THE BUREAU OF CRIMINAL APPREHENSION AT THE STATE OF MINNESOTA HAS CONSISTENTLY RUN THESE INVESTIGATIONS BEFORE.

>> MY HEART IS GRIEVING FOR RENEE AND HER FAMILY.

THIS IS AN UNIMAGINABLE AND PREVENTABLE LOSS.

I HONOR RENEE'S HUMANITY AND LIFE, AND I ACKNOWLEDGE THE DEEP PAIN FELT BY HER LOVED ONES AND NEIGHBORS.

THE TAXPAYER-FUNDED ACTIONS AND HARM WE ARE EXPERIENCING RIGHT NOW ARE INHUMANE, UNLAWFUL, AND UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

>> SHE WAS A MOTHER, A WIFE, AND A BELOVED COMMUNITY MEMBER, NOT A DOMESTIC TERRORIST.

I'M CALLING ON TRUMP'S BI TO ALLOW THE MINNESOTA BCA TO HAVE ACCESS TO ALL THE INFORMATION SO THAT AN INDEPENDENT INVESTIGATION CAN OCCUR.

>> Cathy: HERE WITH US IN STUDIO ONE OF THE MANY ELECTED OFFICIALS WHO SPOKE THIS MORNING, DFL REPRESENTATIVE AISHA GOMEZ REPRESENTS SOUTH MINNEAPOLIS THE STATE LEGISLATURE.

HER HENICE TO HAVE YOU HERE.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> Cathy: SO I'M A PROUD SOUTH SIDER.

>> I DIDN'T KNOW THAT.

>> Cathy: I GREW UP ON THE SOUTH SIDE OF MINNEAPOLIS.

>> OKAY, OKAY.

>> Cathy: AND THAT AREA OF MINNEAPOLIS HAS REALLY TAKEN SOME HITS.

GEORGE FLOYD.

ANNUNCIATION.

AND NOW THIS.

HOW'S THE COMMUNITY FEELING?

>> AS YOU CAN IMAGINE, I MEAN, I THINK THAT PEOPLE AROUND OUR CITY, OUR STATE AND OUR COUNTRY ARE FEELING THE HEAVINESS OF THIS MOMENT.

YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT IT'S BOTH THE PERSONAL KIND OF INTIMATE TRAGEDY OF LOSING SOMEBODY LIKE THIS.

SO TRAGICALLY, EARLY IN HER LIFE, A MOTHER, A BELOVED COMMUNITY MEMBER, A SPOUSE.

AND HEN THERE'S, YOU KNOW, AT THE SAME TIME THAT WE'RE IN THAT MOMENT AND WE'RE IN A TIME WHEN OUR COMMUNITY HAS BEEN FACING FIVE WEEKS OF ABDUCTIONS ON THE STREET OF AN INCREASE IN, YOU KNOW, BRUTALITY TOWARD LEGAL OBSERVERS, THERE'S ALSO THESE BIGGER ISSUES, YOU KNOW, WHAT KIND OF A COUNTRY ARE WE GOING TO HAVE?

WHAT KIND OF A COUNTRY ARE WE GOING TO ACCEPT?

WHAT KIND OF AN ADMINISTRATION ARE WE -- HOW MUCH IS TOO MUCH, YOU KNOW?

I WANT TO -- I WANT TO ASK SOME OF MY COLLEAGUES ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE AISLE THAT.

>> Cathy: AND YOU MIGHT HAVE A CHANCE WHEN THE SESSION STARTS, OBVIOUSLY.

>> YEAH.

>> Cathy: I'M CURIOUS, TOO, BECAUSE YOUR DISTRICT IS SO CLOSE TO LITTLE EARTH, EVIDENTLY THE LITTLE EARTH COMMUNITY, WHICH IS MOSTLY NATIVE, WE'RE GETTING REPORTS FROM RAPID CITY, SOUTH DAKOTA, THAT FOUR NATIVE MEN WERE SWEPT UP IN AN .C.E.

OPERATION YESTERDAY AROUND THE LITTLE EARTH AREA, PHILLIPS NEIGHBORHOOD.

WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU?

>> I MEAN, IT TELLS YOU WHAT'S EVIDENT, IF YOU JUST ISTEN O THE WAY THAT THE FEDERAL ADMINISTRATION IS TALKING ABOUT THIS ISSUE.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT PUBLIC SAFETY.

IT'S NOT ABOUT TARGETED CRIMINAL APPREHENSIONS.

IT'S ABOUT A CAMPAIGN OF DIVISION, OF RACISM AND NATIVISM, AND, YOU KNOW, ANYBODY IS SUBJECT TO IT.

WE SAW -- YOU KNOW, THE IDEA THAT THIS IS ABOUT KEEPING OUR COMMUNITIES SAFE IS JUST SO INSULTING AT THIS POINT, YOU KNOW.

I ARRIVED AT THE SCENE OF RENEE'S MURDER SHORTLY AFTER IT HAPPENED.

AND THERE WAS A GROUP OF I.C.E.

AGENTS THERE.

GREG BOVINO WAS THERE STALKING AROUND THE SCENE INSPECT HIS LITTLE, LIKE, COS-PLAY HELMET.

AND THERE WERE COMMUNITY MEMBERS THERE.

AND FROM THAT SCENE, GREG BOVINO AND HIS MASKED, UNACCOUNTABLE, UNIDENTIFIED TROOPS WENT TO ROOSEVELT HIGH SCHOOL, WHICH I'M SURE YOU KNOW, AND IT WAS DISMISSAL TIME, AND THEY WENT THERE AND THEY TEAR GASED KIDS AND THEY TEAR IT GASED EDUCATORS AND MOMS COMING TO PICK THEIR KIDS UP.

AND THE GROUP OF COMMUNITY MEMBERS WHO WAS THERE WENT OUT AND DEFENDED THEIR NEIGHBORS.

THEY WENT OUT AND DID EXACTLY WHAT RENEE WAS DOING WHEN SHE WAS MURDERED.

AND, SO, THAT IS LIKE THE STORY OF TWO ALTERNATIVES FOR US.

IT'S LIKE WE CAN GIVE N TO THIS ADMINISTRATION, THIS AUTHORITARIAN ADMINISTRATION THAT IS TESTING US, WAS GARCIA BEING DENIED DUE PROCESS RIGHTS AND TAKEN TO C-COT TO A CONCENTRATION CAMP, WAS THAT NOT ENOUGH FOR YOU, IS THE MURDER OF AN AMERICAN CITIZEN WHO IS, OU KNOW, ENGAGING IN CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED ACTIVITIES, IS THAT NOT ENOUGH FOR YOU?

THAT'S ONE VISION OF A COUNTRY THAT WE CAN HAVE RIGHT NOW, A VISION OF HATRED, DIVISION.

OR WE CAN HAVE A COUNTRY THAT ACTUALLY -- AND A STATE THAT ACTUALLY REFLECTS WHO WE ARE AS HUMANS, ONE OF LOVE AND CARE FOR ONE ANOTHER.

>> Eric: I'M VERY CURIOUS ABOUT THE COMMUNITY'S RELATIONSHIP TO MINNEAPOLIS POLICE DEPARTMENT.

DURING THE GEORGE FLOYD INCIDENT, OF COURSE, THEY WERE SEEN AS THE PROBLEM.

ARE THEY SEEN NOW AS MORE OF A POSSIBLE SOLUTION?

>> I MEAN, I THINK, YOU KNOW, YOU JUST HAD CHIEF O'HARA ON, HE'S N A REALLY HARD SITUATION, RIGHT?

THERE'S NO POLICE CHIEF ACROSS THE COUNTRY THAT HAS ARRESTED AN I.C.E.

AGENT WHO'S COMMITTED A CRIME.

AGAINST ONE OF OUR RESIDENTS, OUR CITIZENS.

NOBODY HAS DONE THAT.

YOU KNOW, I'M NOT A LEGAL SCHOLAR OR ANY OF THOSE THINGS.

I MEAN, IT'S A VERY -- WHAT WOULD HAPPEN?

YOU KNOW, WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF A LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT AUTHORITY ARRESTED A FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENT IN THIS POLITICAL KIND OF CLIMATE?

IT'S HARD TO SAY.

>> Cathy: YOU MENTIONED THAT RENEE GOOD WAS DOING SOMETHING THAT WAS CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED.

NOW, THERE ARE SOME VIEWERS OF THIS PROGRAM ARE GOING TO SAY, WELL, SHE WAS BLOCKING THE STREET WITH HER CAR.

AND I'M WONDERING, THERE'S GOING TO BE A BIG PROTEST TOMORROW AT POWDERHORN PARK.

WHAT DO YOU TELL PROTESTERS, WHAT DO YOU TELL THEM HOW TO ACT NOW THAT THERE'S BEEN DEADLY FORCE USED AGAINST A PROTESTER?

>> WELL, I JUST WANT TO SAY THAT I THINK PEOPLE WHO ARE CONCERNED ABOUT ONE OF THE LANES OF TRAFFIC BEING BLOCKED ON PORTLAND AVENUE AND RE USING THAT AS A JUSTIFICATION FOR THE EXECUTION OF SOMEBODY IN THE STREET WITHOUT A TRIAL REALLY NEED TO EXAMINE HEIR THINKING.

YOU KNOW, I'M -- I THINK THAT WE ARE IN DANGEROUS TIMES, THERE'S NO DENYING THAT.

IF THERE WAS ANY DOUBT, THEN THERE IS NO DOUBT ANY LONGER, AFTER WEDNESDAY MORNING.

BUT, YOU KNOW, WHAT WE'RE CALLED ON TO DO IN THIS TIME, RIGHT, IS TO DO WHAT COMMUNITIES ACROSS MINNEAPOLIS, ACROSS THE TWIN CITIES AND MINNESOTA ARE DOING, AND THAT'S ORGANIZING TO TAKE CARE OF EACH OTHER.

YOU KNOW, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE ARE WALKING EACH OTHER'S KIDS HOME FROM SCHOOL WHO ARE SCARED, PEOPLE ARE DELIVERING GROCERIES TO FAMILIES THAT DON'T WANT TO LEAVE THEIR HOMES, AND PEOPLE ARE DOING WHAT RENEE WAS DOING.

WHICH IS SHOWING UP ON THE STREET TO INTERRUPT THESE SECRET POLICE FROM ABDUCTING NEIGHBORS WITH NO DUE PROCESS AND OFTENTIMES, YOU KNOW, U.S.

CITIZENS, NATIVE PEOPLE, INDIGENOUS TO THIS LAND.

WE'RE IN ABSURD TIMES.

WE HAVE TO BE AWARE OF SAFETY, BUT ALSO IT'S LIKE WE HAVE TO -- WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO AND WHAT IS REQUIRED OF US IN TIMES LIKE THIS.

>> Cathy: REPRESENTATIVE, THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> Eric: THANKS A LOT.

>> I APPRECIATE IT.

>> ric: THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

♪ >> ERIC: ON WEDNESDAY, THE SAME DAY AS THE DEADLY USE OF FORCE BY AN I.C.E.

AGENT IN MINNESOTA, REPUBLICAN STATE LAWMAKERS WERE IN WASHINGTON, D.C., FOR THE HOUSE OVERSIGHT HEARING ON FRAUD.

MINNESOTA HOUSE MEMBERS FROM THE REPUBLICAN-LED STATE FRAUD AND OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE TESTIFIED IN CONGRESS.

HERE'S A CLIP OF THEIR OPENING STATEMENTS UP ON CAPITOL HILL.

>> GOVERNOR WALZ, ATTORNEY GENERAL ELLISON, AND MINNESOTA DEMOCRATS FAILED TO ACT, DESPITE COUNTLESS WARNINGS.

THEY FAILED MINNESOTANS AND ALL AMERICANS, HANDING MILLIONS OF TAXPAYER DOLLARS TO FRAUDSTERS.

THEY FAILED CHILDREN AND OTHERS IN MINNESOTA.

THEY FAILED THEIR OWN STATE EMPLOYEES, SOME OF WHOM HAVE COME FORWARD AS WHISTLEBLOWERS.

>> I NOW RECOGNIZE REPRESENTATIVE ROBBINS FOR HER OPENING STATEMENT.

>> GOOD MORNING, Mr.

CHAIRMAN AND MEMBERS.

THANK YOU FOR INVITING US TO TESTIFY.

AS CHAIR OF THE FRAUD PREVENTION COMMITTEE IN MINNESOTA, I HAVE BEEN WORKING TO UNCOVER THE MASSIVE FRAUD UNDER TIM WALZ, PROPOSE SOLUTIONS, AND HOLD STATE AGENCIES ACCOUNTABLE.

TODAY I ILL HIGHLIGHT THE SCALE OF THE PROBLEM, OUTLINE THE WORK OUR COMMITTEE IS DOING TO FIGHT THE FRAUD, AND PROVIDE A ROAD MAP FOR OTHER STATES ON HOW TO DETECT AND STOP FRAUD.

>> CONTRARY TO THE CLAIM JUST MADE BY THE RANKING MEMBER THAT THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF THIS FRAUD, ATTACHED TO MY WRITTEN TESTIMONY YOU WILL FIND A DOCUMENT WHICH COLLATES SEVERAL REPORTS MADE OVER THE PAST 15 YEARS BY MINNESOTA'S NONPARTISAN OFFICE OF LEGISLATIVE AUDITOR, ALONG WITH TRANSCRIPTS OF EACH OF OUR HEARINGS FROM THE FRAUD COMMITTEE.

>> FORMER AND CURRENT EMPLOYEES, I'VE CONTINUED TO MESSAGE WITH THEM VERY OFTEN, SOMETIMES DAILY, AND THEIR COLLECTIVE MESSAGE HAS BEEN COMPLETELY CONSISTENT.

INSTEAD OF FOCUSING ON FRAUDSTERS, DHS LEADERSHIP, INSTEAD, FOCUSED ITS SURVEILLANCE ON EMPLOYEES.

♪ ♪ >> ERIC: HERE WITH MORE OUT OF D.C., KATHRYN PEARSON TEACHES POLITICS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA TWIN CITIES CAMPUS.

WELL, LET'S TRY A LITTLE DIFFERENT ISSUE.

THE HOUSE HAS PASSED AN EXTENSION OF THE HEALTHCARE SUBSIDIES.

17 REPUBLICANS VOTED WITH THE DEMOCRATS.

WHAT'S GONNA HAPPEN IN THE SENATE, IF ANYTHING?

>> WELL, THERE ARE MODERATE SENATORS ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE WHO ARE WORKING ON SORT OF A COMPROMISE PLAN, BUT IT'S NOT GOING TO BE HE SAME BILL THAT THE HOUSE JUST PASSED.

I WANT TO BACK UP FOR A SECOND AND TALK ABOUT JUST HOW EXTRAORDINARY IT IS THAT THIS CAME TO THE HOUSE FLOOR OVER SPEAKER MIKE JOHNSON'S OBJECTIONS.

HOUSE DEMOCRATS, PLUS FOUR REPUBLICANS, USED A DISCHARGE PETITION TO CIRCUMVENT THE PARTY LEADERSHIP.

IT REQUIRES 218 MEMBERS OF CONGRESS TO SIGN LITERALLY A PETITION AT THE CLERK'S DESK AND THEN THAT BRINGS A BILL TO THE FLOOR.

MANY ARE SORT OF STARTED EACH CONGRESS AND VERY RARELY ARE THEY ACTUALLY SUCCESSFUL.

THAT'S WHAT GOT US THE VOTE ON THE EPSTEIN FILES AND THAT'S WHAT GOT THIS VOTE, WHICH THEN RESULTED IN 17 REPUBLICANS BUCKING THE PARTY LEADERSHIP.

BUT IT'S UNLIKELY THAT THIS THREE-YEAR EXTENSION WILL BE WHAT HAPPENS IN HE SENATE.

IT'S LIKELY TO BE SOMETHING, ONE YEAR, SORT OF MORE ATERED DOWN.

>> Cathy: BUT AT LEAST SOMETHING LOOKS LIKE IT'S GOING TO BE DONE?

>> POSSIBLY.

POSSIBLY.

THERE'S A LOT OF PARTISANSHIP THESE DAYS.

>> Cathy: FRAUD WAS A STATED REASON THAT I.C.E.

HAS RAMPED UP OPERATIONS IN MINNESOTA.

AND LET'S TALK ABOUT THE HEARING IN WASHINGTON, D.C., BEFORE THE HOUSE OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE.

WHAT ARE THE RAMIFICATIONS OF THESE HEARINGS?

IT'S THE HOUSE OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE, IT'S PRETTY PARTISAN.

>> IT'S VERY PARTISAN.

YOU KNOW, CONGRESS IS CHARGED WITH OVERSIGHT OF THE FEDERAL BUREAUCRACY, THAT IS ITS ROLE.

BUT IN RECENT YEARS, AND THIS WAS CERTAINLY AN EXAMPLE OF THIS, T'S REALLY BECOME MORE PARTISAN THAN SORT OF AN AUTHENTIC INVESTIGATION INTO THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH, THE FEDERAL BUREAUCRACY, WHAT'S GOING ON IN MINNESOTA.

OF COURSE, THERE ARE VERY LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS TO BE ASKED.

BUT WHEN IT JUST BECOMES PARTISAN ATTACKS FROM BOTH SIDES, IT'S SORT OF TOUGH TO GET AT THOSE ANSWERS.

A LOT OF CLAIMS WERE MADE, UNSUBSTANTIATED.

VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE TO GET INTO, BUT HARD TO KNOW WHAT'S GONNA HAPPEN.

OF COURSE, THE GOVERNOR AND ATTORNEY GENERAL OF MINNESOTA ARE INVITED, BUT WITH EVERYTHING THAT'S HAPPENING, WHO KNOWS IF THEY'LL BE THERE IN FEBRUARY.

>> Eric: AXIOS TONIGHT SAYS DEMOCRATS, IMPEACHMENT FRENZY.

THERE'S SEVERAL LAWMAKERS, INCLUDING BETTY McCOLLUM OF St.

PAUL, WHO WANT TO ATTACK HOMELAND SECRETARY NOEM.

>> RIGHT.

CERTAINLY THERE'S A LOT OF TALK ABOUT THAT, BUT I THINK IT'S PRETTY UNLIKELY TO HAPPEN AT THIS POINT.

YOU KNOW, STAY TUNED, SEE WHAT HAPPENS A MONTH FROM NOW.

BUT CERTAINLY YOU DON'T SEE DEMOCRATIC LEADERS, FOR THE MOST PART, THE MORE SENIOR COMMITTEE MEMBERS ON BOARD WITH THIS.

I THINK THEY WOULD REALLY NEED TO KNOW THAT, YOU KNOW, THE VAST MAJORITY OF MEMBERS WOULD BE COMFORTABLE WITH THIS.

>> ric: IS THERE -- IS THERE A BUDGET IN OUR FUTURE?

>> WELL, JANUARY 30th, SO EVERY YEAR WE NEED 12 ANNUAL APPROPRIATIONS BILLS, ONLY THREE HAVE BEEN SIGNED INTO LAW, THAT WAS PART OF THE SHUTDOWN SORT OF COMPROMISE LAST TIME.

THE HOUSE HAS PASSED THREE, WAITING ON SENATE ACTION.

BUT NOW THE SENATE WILL BE BUSY WITH THE VOTE OVER THE WAR POWERS RESOLUTION.

SO A LOT HAS TO HAPPEN ON THE BUDGET BETWEEN NOW AND JANUARY 30th.

>> Cathy: BY THE WAY, WHAT HAPPENED TO THE EPSTEIN FILES?

>> WELL, NOT A LOT HAS COME OUT.

THERE ARE A LOT QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT.

IT'S NOT GOING TO GO AWAY, IT'S NOT ON THE FRONT BURNER RIGHT NOW.

>> Eric: DO YOU HAVE ANY SENSE HOW WE START THE ELECTION YEAR IN 2026, WHERE WE STAND AS A COUNTRY, WHO'S IN CHARGE, WHO'S UP, WHO'S DOWN?

>> RIGHT.

WELL, CLEARLY DEEPLY DEEPLY DIVIDED.

WITH MINNESOTA BEING SORT OF EPICENTER, FAVOR THE PARTY THAT DOES NOT OCCUPY THE HOUSE.

ADD TO THAT POOR APPROVAL RATINGS FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP.

SORT OF AGAIN, IT WOULD LOOK TO BE A GOOD YEAR, 2026, FOR DEMOCRATS, BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF ISSUES RIGHT NOW.

TYPICALLY WE DON'T THINK OF AN ISSUE LIKE VENEZUELA AS BEING SORT OF A BIG ELECTION-YEAR ISSUE, BUT AT THIS POINT, WHO KNOWS, IT COULD BE.

AND WHO KNOWS HOW THAT WOULD CUT.

ONLY ABOUT 33% OF AMERICANS ARE SUPPORTIVE OF THE PRESIDENT'S ACTIONS, BUT A MAJORITY OF REPUBLICANS ARE AND THAT ALSO COULD, YOU KNOW, PLAY OUT DIFFERENTLY, DEPENDING ON THE LEVEL OF U.S.

INVOLVEMENT.

>> Cathy: SO YOU HAVE VENEZUELA AND THERE'S TALK ABOUT GREENLAND.

>> GREENLAND.

>> Cathy: WHERE'S CONGRESS IN THIS?

>> WELL, CONGRESS, THIS ENTIRE CONGRESS, AND THIS HAS BEEN A TREND, BUT THIS CONGRESS HAS REALLY ESCALATED IT, IS REALLY NOT DOING ITS SORT OF ARTICLE I JOB.

THEY ARE STANDING BY WHILE PRESIDENT TRUMP DOES SORT OF WHAT HE WANTS TO DO.

AND REPUBLICANS HAVE, BY AND LARGE, GIVEN HIM A GREEN LIGHT.

THIS VOTE ON THE WAR POWERS RESOLUTION, WHERE FIVE REPUBLICANS JOINED DEMOCRATS IS A RECENT EXCEPTION.

THE HOUSE BILL ON EXTENDING THE OBAMACARE SUBSIDIES IS AN EXCEPTION.

OF BUT, FOR THE MOST PART, THIS CONGRESS, WE'VE REALLY SEEN REPUBLICANS JUST SORT OF CHEER ON PRESIDENT TRUMP INSTEAD OF SORT OF ASSERT THEIR CONGRESSIONAL ROLE.

>> Eric: NEW YEAR'S TO HAVE A-- OFF TO A RUNNING START?

>> SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

>> Cathy: YEAH, SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

>> Eric: THANKS.

>> Cathy: THANK YOU, PROFESSOR.

♪ >> CATHY: ONE OF THE BUSIEST AND HEAVIEST WEEKS IN MINNESOTA POLITICS BEGAN WITH NEWS THAT GOVERNOR WALZ ABANDONED HIS CAMPAIGN FOR RE-ELECTION.

MARY LAHAMMER TAKES US THROUGH THE TUMULTUOUS WEEK IN STATE POLITICS AT THE TOP OF THE TICKET.

>> Mary: THE GOVERNOR'S GUILDED RECEPTION ROOM WAS PACKED WITH PRESS AND ANTICIPATION FOR INFORMATION ON WHY GOVERNOR WALZ DECIDED NOT TO RUN AGAIN.

>> I WANT MINNESOTANS TO KNOW HOW GRATEFUL I AM FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO SERVE THIS STATE, FOR THE PRIVILEGE THAT I HAVE BEEN GIVEN TO SERVE IN THIS OFFICE.

>> Mary: WITH THE FIRST LADY LOOKING ON, THE EMOTION OF THE MOMENT HAD HIM STICK TO READING A STATEMENT.

>> I'M ON THE JOB, I'M FOCUSED ON MAKING SURE THAT WE STAY AMERICA'S BEST PLACE TO LIVE AND RAISE KIDS.

NO ONE WILL TAKE THAT AWAY FROM US.

I'M PROUD OF THE WAY WE TREAT OUR NEIGHBORS.

I'M PROUD OF THE WAY THAT WE WELCOME PEOPLE TO THIS STATE.

I'M PROUD OF THE WAY THAT WE INNOVATE.

AND I'M PROUD OF THE WAY THAT WE ARE OPTIMISTS FOR THE FUTURE.

NO ONE'S TAKING THIS AWAY FROM US.

NOT THE FRAUDSTERS.

CERTAINLY NOT THIS PRESIDENT.

NOT ON MY WATCH.

>> Mary: WITH THAT, WALZ REFUSED TO TAKE QUESTIONS.

WHILE THE BULK OF HIS PREPARED REMARKS FOCUSED ON FIGHTING FRAUD, HIS SON, THE TARGET OF TOXIC ONLINE HARASSMENT AND BULLYING, SINCE HIS OUTPOURING OF AFFECTION AT THE DNC, POSTED THAT HIS DAD IS NOT RUNNING BECAUSE OF PERSONAL ATTACKS ON THEIR FAMILY DAY IN AND DAY OUT.

>> WE'RE ON A TYPICAL MIDWESTERN MORNING RUN HERE.

>> Mary: HIS DAUGHTER, HOPE, HAD TAKEN A BREAK FROM HER SIZABLE SOCIAL MEDIA INFLUENCE, DUE TO THREATS.

>> E TREAT OUR NEIGHBORS WITH RESPECT AND WELCOME PEOPLE TO THIS STATE.

DEMOCRATS WILL WIN THIS SEAT.

THEY WILL KEEP A PROGRESSIVE AGENDA.

WE WILL KEEP FIGHTING AGAINST THIS WHITE HOUSE AND THESE UNCONSTITUTIONAL ACTS.

>> AND I'M JUST GETTING STARTED.

I AM NOW BEING LET LOOSE BECAUSE OF THIS, PEOPLE.

SO GOOD LUCK, DONALD TRUMP AND ALL THE REPUBLICANS, BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOT SEEN THE LAST OF ME OR HIM, TO E QUITE HONEST.

>> Mary: A DAY AFTER HIS BIG ANNOUNCEMENT, GOVERNOR WALZ TOOK QUESTIONS FROM THE MEDIA, AFTER AN EVENT REGARDING THE ROLLOUT OF THE NEW PAID FAMILY LEAVE PROGRAM.

>> I'VE STOOD IN FRONT OF HE PRESS MORE THAN ANY GOVERNOR IN MINNESOTA HISTORY.

>> Mary: WALZ WAS TOUGH ON THE PRESS AND THE PRESIDENT, AND ATTACKS AGAINST HIS FAMILY.

>> THAT IS FRICKIN' EVIL.

AND EVERY ONE OF YOU IN THIS ROOM KNOWS IT'S EVIL.

AND THAT TYPE OF HATE AND THOSE TYPES OF THREATS THAT ARE ACTIONABLE, YES, AND, LOOK, I'M CONCERNED FOR MY FAMILY, BUT I'VE GOT A LITTLE BIT OF PROTECTION NOW, MY FAMILY, NOT SO MUCH.

>> Mary: WALZ KNOWS HIS MEETING WITH SENATOR AMY KLOBUCHAR SET OFF SPECULATION OF HER LAUNCHING A RUN TO SUCCEED HIM.

SOMETHING WE FIRST ASKED ABOUT BACK AT THE STATE FAIR.

>> AMY KLOBUCHAR RUNS FOR GOVERNOR AND APPOINTS WALZ TO FULFILL HER TERM IN THE U.S.

SENATE.

>> IT REALLY SOUNDS LIKE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN DRINKING A LOT OF BEER AT THE BEER GARDEN.

SO, I BELIEVE THE GOVERNOR'S GOING TO RUN.

I THINK HE SHOULD RUN.

>> Mary: THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE AND A LEADING REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE FOR GOVERNOR IMMEDIATELY CAME TO THE CAPITOL PRESS ROOM.

SURPRISED OR NOT SURPRISED?

>> NOT SURPRISED.

I AM NOT SURPRISED.

I WAS SURPRISED A LITTLE BIT BET TIMING, BUT THIS IS EXPECTED.

THE FACT THAT GOVERNOR WALZ, WITH ALL OF THE FRAUD ND EVERYTHING THAT HAS GONE ON, THOUGHT THAT HE SHOULD BE RUNNING FOR A THIRD TERM, I THINK MOST MINNESOTANS ERE SAYING, PROBABLY NOT.

WAKING UP ALL MINNESOTANS TO REALIZE HOW BIG IT IS, THAT YOU CAN'T JUST IGNORE IT ANYMORE.

PEOPLE SHOULD BE ABLE TO DISAGREE, BUT IT NEVER SHOULD BE VIOLENT.

AND YOU KNOW, MARY, AS I'VE TALKED, SINCE THE TRAGEDY THAT MY WORKING RELATIONSHIP WITH MELISSA HORTMAN WAS SOMETHING I VALUED VERY MUCH -- >> Mary: SHE WAS A MENTOR TO YOU.

>> SHE WAS.

EVEN THOUGH WE DIDN'T AGREE POLITICALLY.

I THINK THAT'S A REALLY GOOD EXAMPLE OF HOW YOU CAN BUILD A WORKING RELATIONSHIP EVEN WHEN YOU DON'T AGREE ON POLITICS.

>> Mary: IS THE PRESIDENT PERPETUATING A LIE?

CONSPIRACY THEORY?

>> WHEN YOU SEE THE STATEMENTS THAT CAME OUT FROM THE HORTMAN KIDS, THOSE WERE SO, SO HEART-FELT AND SO WELL DONE.

AND I DON'T MEAN JUST GREAT JOB.

THEY WERE SO HEART-FELT ON THAT, YOU KNOW, THE TWEETS AND THE RETWEETING OF ONSPIRACY, I DON'T THINK GOVERNOR WALZ HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE TRAGEDY THAT TOOK PLACE.

BUT IT'S SHAKEN ALL OF US.

WOULD I TWEET THAT OR PUT THAT OUT, NO, I WOULDN'T.

>> Mary: SOME OF YOUR COLLEAGUES HAVE CALLED FOR HIS RESIGNATION NOW, HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT?

>> WE'LL SEE HAT HE CHOOSES TO DO.

HE'S STILL THE GOVERNOR RIGHT NOW.

OBVIOUSLY THE STORY ON FRAUD IS EXPLODING.

THESE ARE THINGS THAT ARE NOT NEW, MARY, AND WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT FRAUD FOR YEARS.

>> I'M NOT GOING ANYWHERE.

AND YOU CAN MAKE ALL YOUR REQUESTS FOR ME TO RESIGN.

>> Mary: AND THEN THE GOVERNOR HAD TO DEAL WITH THE DEATH AT THE HANDS OF AN I.C.E.

AGENT IN MINNEAPOLIS, JUST A DAY LATER.

>> DO YOU HAVE NO DECENCY?

WE HAVE SOMEONE DEAD.

IN THEIR CAR.

FOR NO REASON WHATSOEVER.

AND I DON'T WANT TO BE RIGHT ABOUT THIS, BUT I AID, IF THEY DO THIS, THEY'RE GOING TO CREATE A CHAOTIC SITUATION WHERE SOMEONE INNOCENT'S GONNA GET KILLED.

AND THEY DID IT.

AND NOW WE HEAR MORE POLITICAL RHETORIC.

ENOUGH.

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

AND, SO, TO MINNESOTANS, DON'T TAKE THE BAIT.

DO NOT TAKE THE BAIT.

DO NOT ALLOW THEM TO DEPLOY FEDERAL TROOPS INTO HERE.

DO NOT ALLOW THEM TO INVOKE THE INSURRECTION ACT.

DO NOT ALLOW THEM TO DECLARE MARTIAL LAW.

DO NOT THEM TO LIE ABOUT THE SECURITY AND THE DECENCY OF THIS STATE.

♪ ♪ >> Cathy: AS YOU HEARD MARY'S STORY AND OF COURSE THROUGHOUT THE SHOW, IT WAS ALREADY A BIG NEWS WEEK HERE IN MINNESOTA, EVEN BEFORE THE DEADLY I.C.E.

SHOOTING ON WEDNESDAY.

GOVERNOR'S RACE SHAKE-UP, CONGRESSIONAL HEARINGS, NEW FRAUD REPORTS, NOW ANOTHER TRAGEDY IN THE TWIN CITIES, PLENTY ON THE PLATES OF OUR PANELISTS TONIGHT.

DEMOCRATS UP FIRST.

JEFF HAYDEN IS A LOBBYIST AND FORMER DEPUTY MAJORITY LEADER IN THE STATE SENATE WHERE HE REPRESENTED THE DISTRICT WHERE RENEE GOOD WAS KILLED THIS WEEK.

TARRA ERICKSON IS A FORMER JOURNALIST AND LONGTIME LOBBYIST AT THE CAPITOL, WHO NOW WORKS AS A CONSULTANT.

REPUBLICANS ON THE COUCH, PAT GAROFALO IS A FORMER STATE REPRESENTATIVE AND CURRENT PRESIDENT OF THE MINNESOTA GROCERS ASSOCIATION.

AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST, BRIAN McDANIEL, FORMER LEGISLATIVE STAFFER, NOW A LOBBYIST, YES, HE'S A STAND-UP COMEDIAN.

THANK YOU ALL OR BEING WITH US ON A REALLY TOUGH WEEK.

SENATOR HAYDEN, DID IT COME AS ANY SURPRISE TO YOU THAT THE GOVERNOR DECIDED TO ABANDON THE RE-ELECTION BID?

>> I ON'T KNOW IF IT WAS A SURPRISE.

I MEAN, WE HAD STARTED HEARING -- I MEAN, WITH THE CONTINUING DRUM BEAT OF THE FRAUD ISSUES, STARTED GETTING LOUDER AND LOUDER, AND YOU STARTED HEARING FROM SOME DEMOCRATIC INSIDERS, EVEN INSIDE OF THE LEGISLATURE, THAT MAYBE THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WOULD HAPPEN.

I DIDN'T KNOW IT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN THAT DAY.

BUT IT WAS -- THERE WAS STARTING TO BECOME A LOUD DRUM BEAT INSIDE OF THE DEMOCRATIC, YOU KNOW, KIND OF INSIDERS THAT MAYBE THE GOVERNOR SHOULDN'T RUN.

>> Cathy: SURE HE HAVE BAILED OUT EARLIER, NOT EVEN RUN?

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE'S PROBABLY SOME FOLKS THAT FEEL THAT WAY.

I'M GLAD THAT HE MADE THE DECISION THAT HE DID NOW.

I JUST THINK WITH THE STUFF AROUND THE FRAUD THAT IT WAS GOING TO BE TOO DIFFICULT FOR HIM TO -- HE WOULD JUST BE CHASING THAT ISSUE THE ENTIRE TIME, TRYING TO DEFEND HIS RECORD.

AND THERE IS A LOT OF GREAT STUFF, BUT WE ALSO HAVE A REALLY HORRIBLE ISSUE HAPPENING WITHIN DHS AND FRAUD.

SO I'M GLAD THAT HE DECIDED TO STEP DOWN.

>> Eric: BRIAN, IN THE GOVERNOR'S RACE, REPUBLICANS NOW NEED PLAN B, BECAUSE THE PLAN HAD BEEN TO RUN AGAINST WALZ AND NAIL THE FRAUD STUFF TO HIM.

WHAT NOW?

>> WELL, I MEAN, I THINK THAT THE FRAUD ISSUE IS STILL A VERY LEGITIMATE ONE, AND ONE THAT'S THE BEST ISSUE THAT THE REPUBLICANS HAVE TO RUN ON.

WHOEVER THE DEMOCRATS PUT UP WILL HAVE TO KIND OF SAYING EITHER WHAT DID THEY DO TO STOP THE FRAUD OR WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO.

NOW, CERTAINLY IF IT'S SENATOR KLOBUCHAR, IT'S MUCH HARDER TO PIN ANY OF THIS ON HER.

SHE CAN ACT LAW AND ORDER, SHE'S BEEN IN D.C., THIS HASN'T REALLY BEEN HER ISSUE.

BUT THE REPUBLICANS HAVE TO SAY, DEMOCRATS DID THIS, DEMOCRATS DID THAT, WHAT WOULD BE DIFFERENT UNDER DIFFERENT DEMOCRATS?

>> Eric: IF YOU WERE STRATEGIZING FOR THE REPUBLICANS, HOW WOULD YOU HANDLE IT ON THE GOVERNOR'S SIDE?

>> I MEAN, I THINK, FIRST OF ALL, I THINK THE GOVERNOR MADE THE RIGHT DECISION BY NOT RUNNING.

AND I THINK PEOPLE SHOULD GRANT HIM A LITTLE BIT OF GRACE.

THIS WAS NOT JUST ABOUT POLITICS.

LET'S REMEMBER, HIS NUMBER ONE LEGISLATIVE ALLY, MELISSA HORTMAN WAS MURDERED LAST SUMMER.

HE HAD TO MAKE A DECISION WHILE HE WAS STILL GRIEVING.

HE MADE THAT DECISION.

AND I THINK UPON REFLECTION AND HAVING MORE TIME, I THINK HE MADE THE RIGHT DECISION FOR HIS FAMILY, FOR HIS PARTY, FOR THE STATE OF MINNESOTA.

SO I THINK WITH ALL THE FRAUD AND ALL THAT STUFF, LET'S REMEMBER, THESE ARE HUMAN BEINGS THAT REPRESENT US, WE SHOULD CUT THEM A LITTLE BIT OF SLACK.

WITH REGARDS TO REPUBLICANS, I THINK THAT THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE A CHOICE, FIRST OF ALL, AT THEIR ENDORSING CONVENTION, ARE THEY GOING TO NOMINATE SOMEONE WHO'S GOT A CHANCE AT WINNING?

ARE THEY GOING TO GO WITH LISA DEMUTH, KRISTIN ROBBINS, ARE THEY GOING TO GO THE MY PILLOW ROUTE?

[ Laughter ] PRETTY CUT-AND-DRY OPPORTUNITY THERE.

SO THE ADVICE IS, LET'S SEE IF REPUBLICANS UNIFY EARLY.

AND IF THEY DO, IT'S REALLY GOING TO BE ABOUT THIS ISSUE OF HETHER, DO YOU WANT A THIRD TERM FOR GOVERNOR WALZ?

DO YOU WANT TO HAVE ONE-PARTY TOTAL CONTROL, OR DO YOU WANT TO RESTORE BALANCE TO MINNESOTA?

DO YOU WANT TO HAVE CHECKS AND BALANCES AND WORKING TOGETHER?

AND THAT'S REALLY GOING TO BE THE REFERENDUM, REGARDLESS OF WHO THE DFL PUTS UP.

IF, IF REPUBLICANS CHOOSE A ACCEPTABLE ALTERNATIVE.

>> BECAUSE I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, WHOEVER FROM THE DEMOCRATS, YOU KNOW, BECOMES THE FRONTRUNNER OR THE NOMINEE, IT'S GOING TO HAVE TO , WHAT ARE THEY DOING DIFFERENT.

ARE THERE COMMISSIONERS THAT THEY'RE GOING O SAY THEY'RE NOT GOING TO RETAIN.

THOSE ARE HARD THINGS TO DO.

ONE OF THE MISSTEPS THAT KAMALA HARRIS MADE, SHE RAN AGAINST TRUMP, SHE DIDN'T RUN AGAINST BIDEN.

THE NEXT PERSON TO A CERTAIN EXTENT IS GOING TO HAVE TO RUN AGAINST THE WALZ ADMINISTRATION AND ARE THEY WILLING TO DO THAT?

SOME MIGHT NOT NEED TO, BUT SOME DEFINITELY WILL.

>> IF I COULD ADD ONE THING TO THIS, TOO.

FIRST OF ALL, I FORGOT TO SAY, CATHY, ERIC, THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON.

>> Cathy: YOU'RE WELCOME.

>> IS, REMEMBER THAT AS BIG OF AN ISSUE AS WE'RE DEALING WITH WITH FRAUD RIGHT NOW, WE HAVE NOT PEAKED, WE ARE AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS APEX.

MINNESOTA IS ABOUT TO ENTER A VERY TOUGH COUPLE OF YEARS.

WHERE YOU'RE HAVING UNPRECEDENTED RESOURCES FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT INVESTIGATING AND PROSECUTING WHAT IS AN PIDEMIC OF FRAUD IN STATE GOVERNMENT.

AND, REMEMBER THAT LOTS OF THINGS HAPPEN AND FADE OVER TIME.

WITH THE QUANTITIES OF MONEY THAT WERE INVOLVED HERE, WITH REGARDS TO THIS FRAUD, THEY LEAVE DIGITAL FOOTPRINTS.

AND WE'RE GOING TO BE FINDING OUT WHERE A LOT OF FOOTPRINTS WENT.

THIS IS NOT OING AWAY AND IT WILL BE SHAPING -- CURRENT EVENTS WILL BE SHAPING THE ELECTION.

>> Cathy: IT LOOKS LIKE MINNESOTA IS BEING PUNISHED, YOU ALL SAW THE STORY TODAY, USDA SUSPENDING ALL FEDERAL FUNDS TO MINNESOTA IMMEDIATELY.

>> RIGHT NOW DHS HAS CUT OFF PAYMENTS.

I REPRESENT DISABILITY SERVICE PROVIDERS, AND WE HAD MANY PROVIDERS ACROSS THE STATE WHO WERE NOT ABLE TO ACTUALLY MAKE PAYROLL LAST FRIDAY.

THIS IS GOING TO BE RIPPLING DOWN.

I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT REALLY FRUSTRATE ME, THOUGH, IS ABOUT THE FACT, YES, THERE IS FRAUD HERE, YES, IT SEEMS TO BE VERY COORDINATED, YES, WE NEED TO GET A HANDLE ON THIS, AND I THINK THAT SOME STEPS OF BREAKING UP DHS, LIKE WE TALKED ABOUT, THAT DEPARTMENT WAS SO MASSIVE, BUT WHAT I GET ANGRY ABOUT IS THE HYPOCRICY ON THE FACT THAT THERE IS SO MUCH FRAUD HAPPENING IN OTHER STATES, AND THE PRESIDENT HAS PARDONED THESE PEOPLE THAT COMMITTED FRAUD OF, LIKE, $1.6 BILLION IN MEDICAID IN FLORIDA, $1.4 BILLION OF MEDICARE FRAUD IN TEXAS, AND THESE PEOPLE GOT OUT BECAUSE SOMEBODY'S MOM GAVE A MILLION DOLLARS.

I MEAN, FRAUD IS FRAUD, AND IT'S BAD, REGARDLESS OF WHO IS DOING IT.

AND THAT'S THE PART THAT I THINK IS REALLY FRUSTRATING.

>> Cathy: YOU KNOW, THE GOVERNOR SAID IN THAT LAST NEWS CONFERENCE, PLEASE LEAVE US ALONE, IN TERMS OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

AND CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN, I MEAN, WHY DO SOME REPUBLICANS HAVE, LIKE, WALZ DERANGEMENT SYNDROME?

I MEAN, HAVE YOU -- IT'S JUST SO CONCENTRATED ON TIM WALZ.

>> YEAH.

WELL, I THINK THAT THERE'S A BIT OF A DEFLECTION THERE.

I MEAN, WE HAVE DIVIDED GOVERNMENT UP UNTIL THE TRIFECTA A FEW YEARS AGO, AND NOW WE'RE BACK WITH DWIETDED GOVERNMENT.

SO WE WERE ALL THERE.

DIVIDED GOVERNMENT.

I THINK ALL OF US TRIED TO PASS BILLS THAT WE THOUGHT WERE GOING TO HELP PEOPLE.

BUT WE ALSO HAVE AN OVERSIGHT, YOU KNOW, OR DID HAVE AN OVERSIGHT ON THAT.

SO I DON'T THINK REPUBLICANS HAVE HAD CONVERSATION YET TO TALK ABOUT HOW THEY PLAYED A ROLE IN THIS, FOR THE LACK OF OVERSIGHT, AND THEY CERTAINLY HAVEN'T HAD A CONVERSATION TO SAY WHAT THEY WOULD DO.

SO I THINK IT'S AN EASY TARGET TO SIMPLY SAY THAT IT WAS THE GOVERNOR'S FAULT.

>> Eric: GO AHEAD.

>> OH, I WAS GOING TO SAY, ALSO, WALZ TAKES THE AIT.

I MEAN, WHEN THEY TALK ABOUT HIM OR WHEN THEY TALK ABOUT MINNESOTA, HE ACTS, YOU KNOW, LATELY, AT LEAST, IN A KIND OF WILD MANNER.

I THINK THAT HE HAD A MORE CALM DEMEANOR THAT IT WOULDN'T HAVE THE IMPACT, THEN PEOPLE WOULD FOCUS ON THER PEOPLE.

>> BRIAN NOTHING ABOUT THIS RIGHT NOW IS CALM.

>> NO.

>> I MEAN, PEOPLE ARE DYING IN THE STREETS.

THERE ARE PEOPLE LITERALLY SPRAYING CHEMICAL DETERRENTS AT OUR KIDS AND THERE ARE 30,000 STUDENTS IN MINNEAPOLIS WHO ARE NOT IN SCHOOL THIS WEEK.

BECAUSE OF THIS.

NONE OF THIS IS NORMAL.

AND I'M GLAD, I'M EXCITED TO SEE WHAT THE GOVERNOR IS ABLE TO ACCOMPLISH OVER, YOU KNOW, OVER THE NEXT 11 MONTHS.

>> I HINK THAT JUST, AND IT'S IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO REALIZE THIS THAT OBVIOUSLY THIS HAS BEEN AN EXCEPTIONALLY CHALLENGING 18 MONTHS, NOT JUST THIS WEEK, BUT 18 MONTHS FOR MINNESOTA.

BUT THERE ARE SOME BRIGHT SPOTS OUT THERE.

AND I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT WHAT LEADERSHIP MEANS, THERE'S THIS FOCUS ON WHETHER PEOPLE AGREE OR DISAGREE WITH YOU.

MORE OF THE PUBLIC NEEDS TO IGNORE THAT AND THEY NEED TO BE RATING LEADERS ON THE FOLLOWING METRIC.

AND THAT IS, ARE YOU -- ARE THOSE LEADERS TRYING TO INFLAME THE PUBLIC, ANGER THEM, GET THEM -- YOU KNOW, PUT FUEL ON THE FIRE?

OR ARE THEY TRYING TO CALM THINGS DOWN?

ARE THEY TRYING TO SIMMER IT DOWN?

ON THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE, I GOT TO TELL YOU, SECRETARY OF STATE STEVE SIMON, U.S.

SENATOR JOHN FEDER MAN, THEY'VE BEEN GREAT.

ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE, LISA NEW COULD YOU SKI, SPEAKER LISA DEMUTH, THEY'VE BEEN GREAT.

THE THING IS, WE NEED MORE OF THAT LEADERSHIP TO CALM THINGS DOWN.

>> Eric: TO THE EXTENT THAT CAMPAIGNS ARE ABOUT THE FUTURE, WHO IN EITHER PARTY HAS A FORWARD-LOOKING AGENDA.

I HAVEN'T HEARD MUCH.

>> I THINK WHEN YOU GET INTO CRISIS STUFF, WHAT YOU FOCUS ON, AND SURELY THIS WEEK HAS BEEN A CRISIS.

YOU KNOW, I REPRESENT THE AREA THAT WE JUST, YOU KNOW, HAD THE TRAGEDY IN, SAME SIX BE BLOCKS AWAY FROM WHERE GEORGE FLOYD WAS, WE JUST SAW CHAIR GOMEZ, WHO'S HERE, REALLY PASSIONATELY AND ELOQUENTLY TALK ABOUT, THIS IS REAL, I MEAN, IT'S HARD TO THINK ABOUT, WHAT ARE WE GETTING READY TO DO, WHEN WE'RE HAVING TO SNEAK OUR KIDS IN THE BACK DOORS OF SCHOOL SO THAT I.C.E.

DOESN'T SNATCH THEM, RIGHT?

THAT WE'RE HAVING TO HAVE PEOPLE NOT BE ABLE TO GO OUTSIDE OR TAKE OUT THEIR GARBAGE FOR FEAR THAT I.C.E.

MAY GET THEM, RIGHT?

>> EVEN IF THEY'RE CITIZENS.

>> YOUR SKIN COLOR OR YOUR ACCENT, THAT KIND OF STUFF IS LIKE THIS POST UTOPIAN STUFF THAT WE WOULD SEE ON NETFLIX AND IT'S HAPPENING IN OUR COMMUNITIES RIGHT NOW.

SO I THINK IT'S HARD TO SET THE AGENDA ORWARD WHEN THAT KIND F SIEGE AND ASSAULT IS HAPPENING IN YOUR COMMUNITY.

>> Cathy: DO YOU THINK THAT THIS WILL AFFECT THIS COMING SESSION, LEGISLATIVE SESSION?

>> WELL, IT HAS TO.

>> I DON'T KNOW HOW IT WOULDN'T.

>> PEOPLE NEED TO UNDERSTAND, LIKE HE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, CONTRARY TO SOME OF THE RHETORIC YOU'RE HEARING, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ISN'T GOING ANYWHEREMENT THIS IS FEDERAL LAW AND IT'S GOING TO BE ENFORCED IN MINNESOTA.

YOU CAN DISAGREE ABOUT THE STRATEGY AND THE TACTICS, BUT WE HAVE A MULTIHUNDRED-YEAR TRADITION BE IN THE COUNTRY, WHEN THE STATES SAY IT'S NOT GOING TO ENFORCE THE LAW, WHETHER IT'S THE WHITS CAN I REBELLION, CIVIL RIGHTS, WHEN STATES FIGHT WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT ABOUT ENFORCING FEDERAL LAW, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WINS.

AND I WOULD ENCOURAGE EVERYBODY TO RECOGNIZE THAT.

PLEASE, PLEASE STOP GETTING INVOLVED.

YOU KNOW, CHASING AND FOLLOWING I.C.E.

AGENTS.

WORK ADMINISTRATIVELY, WORK TO TRY TO MAKE THIS A BETTER SITUATION.

BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT GONNA STOP ENFORCING THE LAW.

>> WELL, PAT, BUT THERE'S ALSO BEEN A FINE LINE BETWEEN REBELLING AGAINST THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY DON'T TRAMPLE OVER YOUR RIGHTS.

AND, SO -- >> Eric: GOTTA GO.

>> I'M SORRY, ERIC.

>> Eric: WE GOTTA GO.

>> Cathy: I'M SO SORRY.

>> Eric: TO BE CONTINUED.

>> Cathy: THANK YOU.

APPRECIATE Y'ALL.

>> CATHY: WITH THE SERIOUS NATURE OF THE NEWS THIS WEEK, YOU MAY HAVE NOTICED WE SKIPPED THE WEEKLY ESSAY AND INDEX FILE SECTION.

WE HOPE BOTH WILL RETURN NEXT FRIDAY NIGHT, AS WELL AS MORE VARIETY IN THE NEWS SEGMENTS.

WE WILL CONTINUE TO COVER THE AFTERMATH AND INVESTIGATION INTO THE SHOOTING DEATH OF MINNEAPOLIS RESIDENT RENEE NICOLE GOOD BY AN I.C.E.

AGENT.

OF COURSE.

WE HOPE TO TALK WITH MEMBERS OF CONGRESS AND MORE STATEWIDE OFFICIALS, AS WELL AS COMMUNITY MEMBERS IN THE COMING WEEKS.

A QUICK NOTE BEFORE WE GO, WE WANT TO SEE ALL OF YOU IN PERSON LATER THIS MONTH IF YOU'VE GOT SOME TIME.

"ALMANAC AFTER HOURS" RETURNS ON JANUARY 21ST.

IT'S A LEGISLATIVE PREVIEW COMBINED WITH AN "ALMANAC" TRIVIA COMPETITION.

IF YOU CAN BELIEVE THAT.

ERIC AND I WILL BE THERE, ALONG WITH MARY LAHAMMER AND SOME SPECIAL GUESTS.

HEAD TO TPT.ORG/EVENTS FOR ALL THE DETAILS.

WE APPRECIATE YOU ATCHING.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

CAPTIONED BY: VERITEXT/PARADIGM CAPTIONING WWW.VERITEXT.COM >> "ALMANAC" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY MEMBERS OF THIS PUBLIC TELEVISION STATION.

SUPPORT IS ALSO PROVIDED BY... GREAT RIVER ENERGY: PROVIDING WHOLESALE POWER TO 1.7 MILLION PEOPLE THROUGH ITS MEMBER-OWNER COOPERATIVES AND CUSTOMERS.

DELTA DENTAL OF MINNESOTA FOUNDATION: IMPROVING ORAL HEALTH AND HELPING COMMUNITIES THRIVE.

DELTADENTALMN.ORG/TPT.

AND EDUCATION MINNESOTA: THE VOICE FOR PROFESSIONAL EDUCATORS AND STUDENTS THROUGHOUT THE STATE.

MORE AT EDUCATIONMINNESOTA.ORG.

"ALMANAC" IS A PRODUCTION OF TWIN CITIES PBS FOR THE STATIONS OF MINNESOTA PUBLIC TELEVISION ASSOCIATION.