>> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP .

THE CATO INSTITUTE TELLS US HOW TERMS POLICIES ON IMMIGRATION AND TARIFFS ARE CHANGING AMERICA AND THE WORLD.

> >> AS IRAN NEGOTIATES WITH THE UNITED STATES, IS IT TAKING MORE HOSTAGES AS BARGAINING CHIPS?

TOGETHER FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE THE RELEASE FROM CAPTIVITY IN TEHRAN.

> >> LIBERAL AND CONSERVATIVE HISTORIANS IN THE FUTURE WILL LOOK UPON THESE HUNDRED DAYS AS -- >> TIMOTHY --JOINS WALTER ISAACSON ON HOW TRUMP'S FIRST 100 DAYS COMPARE WITH HIS PREDECESSORS .

> >> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT .

JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WE'RE AND SIMON B POYNTER PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAILA AND MICKEY STRAUSS.

MARK J BLACKNER.

THE D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

THE JAY MELVIN.

THE PETER G PETERSON AND JONES CAN COONEY FUN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN THE COMMUNITY.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

JUST GETTING STARTED, THOSE ARE THE WORDS OF PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP AS HE MARKS 100 DAYS IN OFFICE.

100 DAYS OF POLICY BLIPS, WHIPLASH AND HEADS BEEN.

HE CAN'T BE PLEASED WITH TODAY'S HEADLINE.

THE U. S. ECONOMY JUST HAD THE WORST QUARTER SINCE 2022, THANKS TO HIS CHAOTIC TARIFFS AND ABRUPT POLICY SHIFTS.

THE GDP HAS PLUMMETED.

MULTIPLE MAJOR POLLS HAVE SHOWN HIS APPROVAL RATINGS UNDERWATER.

NOT JUST OVERALL BUT ON THE VERY ISSUES THAT HELPED PROPEL HIM BACK INTO THE WHITE HOUSE.

ON IMMIGRATION, THE MAJORITY SAID HE HAS GONE TOO FAR ON ENFORCEMENT.

TRUMP INSIST THIS IS WHAT HIS VOTERS SIGNED UP FOR.

THE MINOR FAITHFUL STILL STAND BY HIM.

TODAY IMMIGRATION AUTHORITIES FINALLY RETUNED --RELEASED -- FOLLOWING A JUDGES ORDER.

HE HAD BEEN ARRESTED THIS MONTH AFTER ARRIVING FOR AN INTERVIEW FOR CITIZENSHIP.

DAVID BEER IS DIRECTOR OF IMMIGRATION STUDIES.

HE IS AN EXPERT ON BORDER SECURITY AND PREVIOUSLY WORKED ON CAPITOL HILL.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> CAN I ASK ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS CAME IN PRESIDENT TRUMP IN HIS LATEST INTERVIEW BLITZ SAID THAT THIS IS WHAT THE VOTERS SIGNED UP FOR EVEN THOUGH THE GDP IS DOWN AND PRICES ARE UP AND UNCERTAINTY FOR BUSINESS.

HE SAID THIS IS WHAT THEY SIGNED UP FOR.

IS THAT WHAT HE TELEGRAPHED ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL?

>> IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT VOTERS WERE INTERESTED IN, THEY WANTED TO SEE THE ECONOMY BOOMING AND SEE INFLATION COME DOWN.

THEY WANTED TO SEE FIRST TERM TRUMP ECONOMIC POLICY.

THIS IS NOT FIRST-TERM ECONOMIC POLICY FROM THIS ADMINISTRATION.

'S THEY ARE RADICALLY RESHAPING THE WORLD ECONOMY THROUGH TARIFFS AND THROUGH IMMIGRATION POLICY AS WELL IN JUST THE FIRST 100 DAYS.

>> STAYING ON TARIFFS, THE LATEST CNN POLL SHOWS 59% OF THE PUBLIC THAT HIS POLICIES HAVE MADE THE ECONOMY WORSE AND FOR THEM AS WELL.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE TAKE AWAY IS?

WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL BE GOING ON BETWEEN PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS ADVISORS WHEN THEY SEE THE STARK REALITY OF THE 100 DAYS?

HOW LONG CAN THEY KEEP SAYING IT IS GOING TO BE PAINFUL BUT YOU WERE GOING TO GET THROUGH IT CAME BACK >> Reporter: THEY CAN SAY IT FOR A WHILE.

THEY ARE NOT LOOKING AT THE SHORT-TERM ELECTORAL CONSEQUENCES.

THEY BUY INTO THEIR OWN PROPAGANDA THAT IT IS ULTIMATELY GOING TO BRING BACK MANUFACTURING , EVEN THOUGH WE ARE SEEING MANUFACTURING BE HIT BY TARIFFS.

WE ARE SEEING OPPOSITION TO THE TARIFFS.

THEY ARE GOING TO KEEP SAYING IT UNTIL THE ELECTION PUNISHES THEM FOR AT.

>> I WANT TO PLAY A SOUNDBITE FROM THE CEO OF FORD.

HE TALKED ABOUT HOW EVEN FORD, A COMPANY DEEPLY COMMITTED TO A MANAGER --AMERICAN MANUFACTURING IS FEELING THE PAIN OF TARIFFS IN CERTAIN INSTANCES.

>> BOY DO WE HAVE A LOT OF WORK TO DO WITH THE ADMINISTRATION ON EXPORTS AND AFFORDABILITY OF HEARTS IS AN IMPORTANT THING FOR AMERICA.

WE HAVE TO KEEP THE VEHICLES AFFORDABLE.

WE WANT TO MAKE THEM IN THE U. S. BUT WE WANT TO MAKE THEM AFFORDABLE.

THE PARTS ARE CRITICAL.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT MESSAGE WILL GET THROUGH TO THE PRESIDENT?

SOMEBODY LIKE THE FORD CEO CAN PRESUMABLY GET QUITE CLOSE TO THE PRESIDENT AND MAYBE PICK UP THE PHONE OR HAVE A MEETING.

SO MANY OTHER AMERICAN SMALL AND MEDIUM BUSINESS OWNERS ARE REALLY COMPLAINING ABOUT PRACTICALLY LOSING THEIR SHIRTS AND EVERYTHING ELSE THAT THEY MORTGAGED TO THE HILT FOR THEIR BUSINESS?

>> WE ARE GOING TO SEE MORE CAPITALISM AS A RESULT.

THE BIG PLAYERS ABLE TO CONVINCE THE PRESIDENT TO GIVE EXCEPTIONS FOR PRODUCTS OR INPUT WHERE THE SMALL PLAYERS GET PUSHED OUT.

THAT IS THE LESSON ON TARIFFS.

THEY DON'T WORK.

THEY HARM THE PEOPLE THEY ARE TRYING TO HELP.

THE WORKERS THAT ARE GOING TO BE PUNISHED AND ULTIMATELY LOWER THE STANDARD OF LIVING.

I DON'T THINK HE WILL BACK OFF.

THEY ARE TOO CENTRAL TO THE MESSAGE AND CAMPAIGN.

THE REALITY WILL HIT.

THERE WILL BE ELECTORAL CONSEQUENCES.

>> HE DID A BIT OF A U-TURN AND SOME PEOPLE SAY HE BLINKED WHEN THE BOND MARKET STARTED TO TALK AND ISSUED THAT YOU TURN AND 90 DAY PAUSE FOR RECIPROCAL TARIFFS.

I WANT TO ASK YOU, DEVILS ADVOCATE, THERE ARE PLENTY OF TRUMP ECONOMISTS WHO BELIEVE TARIFFS ARE A LEGITIMATE WAY TO GET REVENUE AND RE-SURE MANUFACTURING.

I HAD HEARD A PROFESSOR FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO SAY YES IT IS A TAX BUT IT IS A LOWER TAX THAN INCOME TAX SO WHY SHOULDN'T YOU HAVE TARIFFS AS THE MAIN SOURCE OF INCOME CAME IN >> IT IS DISTORTIONARY.

YOU'RE GOING TO DISTORT THE ECONOMY AND RESULT IN HUGE COSTS THAT ARE PASSED ON TO CONSUMERS AND REALLY RESULT IN MORE PROBLEMS.

OBVIOUSLY THE INCOME TAX IS ALSO A PROBLEM.

NOT SUPPORTIVE OF THAT.

WE WANT TO SEE MUCH LOWER INCOME TAX RATES AS WELL.

THAT IS NOT THE TRADE-OFF THAT COMPANIES ARE FACED WITH RIGHT NOW.

THERE IS THIS PERVASIVE UNCERTAINTY.

HE CAN FLIP-FLOP ALL HE WANTS AND LOWER IT TO MAKE EXCEPTIONS BUT IF THERE IS NO CERTAINTY, COMPANIES ARE NOT GOING TO BUILD PRODUCTS IN AMERICA.

THEY NEED TO KNOW WHAT THE LAW IS GOING TO BE.

WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP NO ONE KNOWS WHAT THAT IS EVEN RIGHT NOW.

IT IS FLIP-FLOPPING DAILY.

THAT IS AN ENORMOUS PART OF THE PROBLEM WHEN IT COMES TO ECONOMIC GROWTH.

>> LET'S MOVE TO IMMIGRATION.

YOU HAVE DONE A HUGE AMOUNT OF WORK ON THAT.

LET'S NOT FORGET , GOING INTO THE ELECTION, THE MAJORITY OF HIS SUPPORTERS AND A MAJORITY OF AMERICAN VOTERS SAID IMMIGRATION WAS RIGHT UP AT THE TOP OF THE LIST OF DEMANDS.

LET'S SET THE TABLE.

THERE IS ALMOST ZERO MOVEMENT.

MAYBE ZERO MOVEMENT FROM MEXICO TO THE UNITED STATES RIGHT NOW.

THAT IS A SUCCESS RIGHT?

>> Reporter: THE TREND EVEN BEFORE HE TOOK OFFICE, CROSSINGS WERE DOWN 90%.

THAT IS THROUGH DECEMBER OF 2024.

THAT CONTINUED 90% REDUCTION SINCE THAT TIME.

HE CAN CLAIM CREDIT .

THE BORDER IS SEALED.

THAT IS WHAT THE VOTERS WANTED HIM TO DO WHEN IT COMES TO ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.

THEY DIDN'T WANT TO SEE CONTINUED ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.

HE HAS DELIVERED ON THAT PROMISE.

IT HAS COME WITH UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES FOR ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS AND U. S. CITIZENS THAT ARE GETTING CAUGHT UP IN THE MOOSE THAT THE PUBLIC DOESN'T WANT TO SEE.

>> LET ME READ YOU SOME OF THESE LATEST.

52% SAY TRUMP HAS GONE TOO FAR IN DEPORTING UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS.

82% OR MORE THAN HALF SAID POLICIES HAVE NOT MADE THE USA FOR.

57% SAY THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT FOLLOWING THE LAW WITHOUT CARRYING OUT DEPORTATIONS.

ARE YOU SURPRISED BY THIS AMOUNT OF PUSHBACK, THIS EARLY IN A PRESIDENTIAL TERM?

>> I AM NOT REALLY SURPRISED.

WE SAW A SIMILAR MOVE WHEN HE CAME IN AND STARTED TO TRY AND DELIVER ON HIS PROMISES.

THE PUBLIC FONT THEY WERE VOTING FOR SOMEONE WHO WAS GOING TO CRACK DOWN ON IMMIGRANTS THAT COMMIT CRIMES , VICTIMIZE AMERICANS WHO ARE PUBLIC SAFETY THREATS.

THAT HAS NOT BEEN THE FOCUS OF THE ADMINISTRATION.

ON DAY 1 THEY RESCINDED REQUIREMENTS TO TARGET THOSE.

PEOPLE THAT WERE PUBLIC SAFETY THREAT .

WE KNOW A MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE BOOKED INTO CUSTODY SO FAR HAVE NOT HAD A CRIMINAL CONVICTION.

THAT IS NOT WHAT THE PUBLIC THOUGHT THEY WERE GETTING WHEN IT CAME TO INTERIOR ENFORCEMENT.

THERE IS ALSO NOT LEGAL VERSUS ILLEGAL.

HE IS ARRESTING AND DETAINING PEOPLE THAT NEVER VIOLATED ANY IMMIGRATION LAWS .

FOREIGN STUDENTS AND LEGAL PERMANENT RESIDENT AND OTHERS THAT ENTER THE COUNTRY LEGALLY AND HUMANITARIAN STATUS.

HE IS EVEN ARRESTING AND DEPORTING THEM TO EL SALVADOR TO BE INCARCERATED INDEFINITELY WITHOUT CHARGE OR TRIAL.

AMERICANS ARE CONCERNED THAT THEIR RIGHTS AND THE RIGHTS OF LEGAL RESIDENTS ARE BEING ERODED BY THIS PRESIDENT.

>> I WANT TO GET TO THAT BUT FIRST, I WANT TO PLAY SOMETHING ABOUT THE FORMER SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY TOLD US , SORT OF AN EXIT INTERVIEW DAYS BEFORE THE INAUGURATION ABOUT WHAT HE THOUGHT AMERICANS WOULD FEEL ABOUT THE PROMISE OF MASS DEPORTATION.

THIS IS WHAT HE SAID.

>> THAT IS A VERY DIFFICULT CHOICE TO PUT THE PEOPLE.

IT CAN AFFECT A GREAT DEAL OF SUFFERING .

IF IN FACT THE POLICIES ARE CONSISTENT WITH THE RHETORIC AND PRACTICES FOLLOW THE POLICIES, WE WILL SEE HOW THE ELECTORATE RESPONDS.

WORDS ARE VERY DIFFERENT THEN SEEING THE WORDS MATERIALIZE IN HUMAN SUFFERING.

>> HE WAS REALLY PATHETIC.

-- >> WE ARE DEPORTING PEOPLE THAT ARE LEGAL RESIDENTS AND PEOPLE THAT ARE MARRIED TO U. S. CITIZENS THAT HAVE NOT COMMITTED CRIMES AND HAVE NOT BEEN CONVICTED OF CRIMES AND HAS NOT GONE THROUGH ANY DUE PROCESS AND WE ARE IMPRISONING THEM IN ESSENTIALLY A TORTURE PRISON CAMP IN EL SALVADOR.

AMERICANS ARE CONCERNED WHEN YOU START TALKING ABOUT GETTING RID OF THEIR RIGHTS .

WHEN IT COMES TO THE FIRST AMENDMENT AND FREE SPEECH, WE DON'T WANT TO LIVE IN A COUNTRY WHERE YOU NEED TO SHOW YOUR PASSPORT IN ORDER TO SAY SOMETHING CRITICAL OF THE FOREIGN POLICY OF THE GOVERNMENT.

THAT IS THE DIRECTION THE ADMINISTRATION IS GOING.

THERE ARE REASONS FOR CONCERN WHEN IT COMES TO IMMIGRATION POLICY.

>> YOU CALLED IMMIGRATION POLICY ECONOMICALLY DESTRUCTIVE AND SOCIALLY DAMAGING.

HE SAID THEY ARE FACING FOUR YEARS OF LAWLESSNESS, CHAOS AND UNCERTAINTY THAT WILL LEAVE AMERICA SMALLER, POORER AND LESS FREE.

HOW SHOULD THIS BE DONE?

>> WE NEED TO REFORM IMMIGRATION LAWS.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS FOR PEOPLE TO HAVE A REALISTIC OPPORTUNITY TO IMMIGRATE LEGALLY SO THERE IS NO INCENTIVE TO CROSS ILLEGALLY OR PAY CARTELS TO GET SMUGGLED INTO THE UNITED STATES TO VIOLATE LAWS AND HAVE ORDER PATROL CAUGHT POLICING PEOPLE THAT ARE JUST SEEKING ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY OR SAFETY FROM THREATS ABROAD.

THERE SHOULD BE LEGAL WAYS TO CALM.

THOSE LEGAL WAYS ARE BEING ERODED AND TAKEN AWAY BY THIS ADMINISTRATION.

WE HAVE ALREADY SEEN A COMPLETE OBLITERATION OF THE HUMANITARIAN PROGRAM, THE TERMINATION OF THE REFUGEE PROGRAM AND OF COURSE HE IS TARGETING LEGAL IMMIGRANTS THAT COME HERE FOR DEPORTATION AND ARREST.

IT IS NOT JUST ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION THAT IS DOWN IT IS LEGAL AS WELL.

PEOPLE ARE FEARFUL THAT IF THEY COME TO THE UNITED STATES THEY WILL NOT HAVE THEIR RIGHTS PROTECTED AND THEY COULD END UP IN A FOREIGN PRISON.

THAT IS NOT A GOOD SIGN FOR ECONOMIC GROWTH AND FOR ULTIMATELY PROSPERITY IN THE LONG TERM .

>> LET'S TAKE THE CASE OF ABREGO GARCIA.

THE SALVADORAN FROM MARYLAND THAT WAS SNATCHED.

HE IS MARRIED TO AN AMERICAN CITIZEN AND THIS BEING A HUGE KERFUFFLE BETWEEN THE U. S. PRESIDENT AND THE SALVADORAN PRESIDENT.

A COURT TOLD THE U. S. PRESIDENT TO FACILITATE HIS RETURN.

IN AN INTERVIEW WITH ABC NEWS, TRUMP SAID I COULD IF I WANTED TO, CONTRADICTING HIMSELF BECAUSE BEFORE HE SAID I CAN'T, IT IS UP TO EL SALVADOR.

NOW WE UNDERSTAND THAT SECRETARIAL RUBIO HAS BEEN IN TOUCH WITH THE EL SALVADOR PRESIDENT AND THE ANSWER IS NO.

THIS DOESN'T SOUND RIGHT.

THE U. S. PRESIDENT CAUSED THE EL SALVADOR AND PRESIDENT AND SAID YOU SENT THIS GUY BACK.

IN THE SECOND HE WOULD BE ON A PLANE.

>> OF COURSE.

WE ARE PAYING THE GOVERNMENT TO DETAIN HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE ON OUR BEHALF, MILLIONS OF DOLLARS ARE BEING SENT THERE IN ORDER FOR THIS PURPOSE.

OF COURSE HE WOULD SEND HIM BACK IF PRESIDENT TRUMP ACTUALLY WANTED HIM TO COME BACK.

HE KNOWS THIS IS SOMETHING , THEY ARE GOING THROUGH THE MOTIONS IN ORDER TO APPEASE THE COURT WHO ORDERED THIS TO HAPPEN.

NOW THEY GET TO SAY, EL SALVADOR SAID NO, THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO.

THIS SHOULD BE REALLY TERRIFYING.

THIS WAS AN ILLEGAL DEPORTATION OF THE SPOUSE OF AN AMERICAN CITIZEN WHO HAS COMMITTED NO CRIMES AND HAS NOT BEEN CONVICTED OF ANY CRIMES.

THIS COULD BE SOMETHING , ACCORDING TO THE APPEALS COURT , THIS COULD HAPPEN TO A U. S. CITIZEN.

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION RESPONSE COULD BE THE EXACT SAME.

THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN DO.

WE CAN'T GET EVEN A U. S. CITIZEN OUT OF CUSTODY.

THAT IS A TERRIFYING THOUGHT FOR THE FUTURE OF OUR COUNTRY.

>> AS YOU KNOW, THERE HAVE BEEN SEVERAL U. S. GREEN CARD HOLDER STUDENTS ARRESTED AND THREATENED WITH DEPORTATION.

THE COURTS HAVE INTERVENED SOMEWHAT.

ONE OF THEM HAS BEEN RELEASED TODAY AND HE WAS TAKEN IN GOING FOR CITIZENSHIP INTERVIEW.

HERE IS WHAT HE SAID ON HIS RELEASE.

>> MY FREEDOM IS INTERLINKED TO THE FREEDOM OF OTHER STUDENTS, INCLUDING -- THOSE STUDENTS DON'T HAVE THE PRIVILEGE WHICH SHOULD BE DUE PROCESS.

>> ARE YOU SURPRISED THAT HE GOT DUE PROCESS, ABREGO GARCIA IS NOT GETTING DUE PROCESS.

WHAT IS HAPPENING BETWEEN THESE TWO GROUPS?

HE MENTIONED TO OTHER STUDENTS STILL HELD WITH NO CHARGES FILED .

>> YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED WITH ABREGO GARCIA .

THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ENGAGED IN A CONSPIRACY TO AVOID --.

IT HUSTLED THOSE INDIVIDUALS ONTO PLANES AS THE HEARING WAS TAKING PLACE AND THEN IGNORED A COURT ORDER ORDERING THE PLANES TO STOP AND COME BACK.

THAT IS THE DISTINCTION.

THERE WAS A HEARING AND JUDICIAL PROCESS AND THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IGNORED IT AND THWARTED IT AND ULTIMATELY DID SO IN VIOLATION OF A LAW WITH THE INTENT TO ULTIMATELY IMPRISON PEOPLE WITHOUT DUE PROCESS.

THIS WAS A DISTINCT CASE WHERE THEY ARRESTED HIM AT A CITIZENSHIP INTERVIEW.

THEY SUSPECTED THIS MIGHT HAPPEN.

THERE WAS SOME PREPARATION AND ULTIMATELY THEY WERE ABLE TO FILE A PETITION FOR RELEASE AND OBTAIN THAT.

THIS IS THE CONCERN THAT MANY HAVE.

>> SHOWING UP IN THE POLLS IN A CLEAR WAY.

> >> IRAN AND THE UNITED STATES WILL CONTINUE NEGOTIATIONS IN ROME ON SATURDAY.

THE PROSPECT OF THE DEAL RAISES QUESTIONS OF HOSTAGES.

FOR YEARS, THE IRAN GOVERNMENT TARGETED DUAL CITIZENS.

OFTEN LOCKING THEM UP ON CHARGES, ONLY TO RELEASE THEM AS PART OF A WIDER DEAL.

MOST RECENTLY , FIVE AMERICANS WERE RELEASED, INCLUDING --.

SPOKE TO US ON THIS PROGRAM FROM INSIDE PRISON TO PLEAD FOR RELEASE AND EVENTUALLY HAD HAPPENED.

THE RISK FOR OTHERS IS STILL VERY REAL.

THEY ARE NOW JOINING ME FOR THE FIRST JOINT INTERVIEW SINCE THAT RELEASE TO TALK ABOUT HOW THEY ARE NOW AND WHAT THEY ARE WORRIED ABOUT.

EVERYBODY, WELCOME.

IT MAKES ME HAPPY TO SEE YOU FREE AND ABLE TO TALK.

NO LONGER IN THAT.

LET ME ASK YOU HOW YOU ARE DOING?

>> I AM HERE, I AM VERY GRATEFUL TO BE HERE.

I AM VERY CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON AND ALL THE PEOPLE THAT ARE STILL THERE .

WE STILL HAVE A LOT OF HOSTAGES WE NEED TO RESCUE.

AMERICAN AND EUROPEAN NATIONALS THAT WE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT.

>> CAN YOU DESCRIBE A BIT OF THE FRIENDSHIP THAT YOU GUYS HAVE FORMED.

EITHER WHEN YOU WERE THERE WHEN YOU FINALLY GOT TOGETHER IN AN AREA OF THE PRISON INSTANCE YOU HAVE COME OUT?

>> FOR ALL THREE OF US, ALTHOUGH WE HAVE DISSIMILAR BACKGROUNDS, WE DO SHARE A LOT OF THINGS AT THE SAME TIME.

IT WAS COMFORTING TO BE AMONG A FEW WHO WE COULD RELATE TO WHICH WAS NOT AN EASY THING.

WE ACTIVELY STAYED IN TOUCH .

THERE IS A BIT OF AN ADVANTAGE IN WASHINGTON.

WHEN I GET TO WASHINGTON , WE WOULD MAKE SURE WE GET TOGETHER FOR LUNCH OR DINNER.

AND ONE YEAR ANNIVERSARY.

OR ANYTHING WE CAN.

WE STAY IN TOUCH BY MESSAGE AND BY PHONE FAIRLY REGULARLY.

IT HAS BEEN IMPORTANT TO ALL OF US.

>> YOU ARE NOW GETTING TOGETHER ON THIS ISSUE BECAUSE YOU WANT TO WARN TRAVELERS ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED.

CAN I ASK YOU, WHEN YOU WERE TAKEN IN AND YOU KNEW --WAS THERE, DID YOU THINK , MAYBE THEY DID SOMETHING?

WHAT DID YOU THINK ABOUT THE CHARGES?

>> I ALWAYS THOUGHT THEY DON'T JUST PICK UP RANDOM PEOPLE IN THE STREET AND CHARGE THEM WITH ESPIONAGE.

I KNEW --VERY WELL.

I WAS WELL AWARE OF ARRESTS.

WHEN I FIRST MET IN PERSON IN SEPTEMBER OF 2021 WHEN THEY MOVED ME TO THE GENERAL WARD AND HE WAS SWEET ENOUGH TO SAY HELLO, I APOLOGIZE AND I SAID, I THOUGHT YOU HAD DONE SOMETHING.

NOW THAT I HAVE GONE THROUGH IT, I KNOW WHAT IT FEELS LIKE AND HOW BOGUS THE WHOLE THING IS.

JUST ONE OTHER QUICK EXAMPLE, WHEN --WAS TAKEN, I KNEW ABOUT THAT STORY AND HIS COLLEAGUES THAT WERE TAKEN WHEN HIS FRIEND AND COLLEAGUE SUPPOSEDLY COMMITTED SUICIDE WHILE HE WAS IN CUSTODY .

MY DAUGHTER , MY YOUNGEST DAUGHTER CALLED ME FROM WASHINGTON CRYING AND BEGGING ME TO LEAVE.

YOU KNOW WHAT I TOLD HER?

I SAID LOVE, THEY MUST HAVE DONE SOMETHING .

I AM JUST A BUSINESSMAN.

I HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING.

THERE IS NOT A SINGLE PERCENTAGE CHANCE THAT I WILL BE PICKED UP.

I WAS WRONG ON ALL COUNTS.

>> THAT IS REALLY DRAMATIC.

JUST SO WE CAN UNDERSCORE, YOU WERE ACCUSED OF ALL SORTS OF THINGS.

NONE OF THEM STOOD UP AND NONE OF THEM WERE TRUE.

THE ACCUSATIONS INCLUDING TRAINING LIZARDS TO SPY ON THE NUCLEAR PROGRAM.

YOU WERE WE MUST SAY AN ENVIRONMENTALIST.

YOU SAY YOUR CHARGES INCLUDED HACKING THE SMS SYSTEM THREE YEARS BEFORE SMS EVEN EXISTED.

TALK TO ME ABOUT THE CHARGES AND HOW YOU WERE ABLE TO STARE THEM DOWN .

>> THIS IS EXACTLY THE POINT.

WHEN THE HEINOUS DIPLOMACY, THEY DON'T LOOK FOR GUILTY PARTIES.

THEY MANUFACTURE GUILT.

WHEN THEY TAKE IT THEY HAVE THE ENTIRE POWER OF THE STATE .

IN ALL THREE CASES WE WERE TAKEN BY REVOLUTIONARY GUARDS.

IT IS NOT JUST THE ARMY ATTACKING, IT IS AN ARMY WITH FULL POWER OF THE STATE MEDIA AND NEWSPAPERS.

I THINK THEY WERE PROBABLY ABOUT A DOZEN DOCUMENTARIES MADE ABOUT ME.

YOU CAN IMAGINE SITTING IN PRISON VIEWING THAT.

THEY THROW SO MUCH AT YOU TO CREATE THIS IMAGE THAT YOU HAVE DONE SOMETHING.

PEOPLE THINK THAT THESE GUYS ARE CLAIMING 10.

THEY CANNOT IMAGINE IT IS REALLY ZERO.

IT TOOK ME SIX YEARS TO READ MY FILE.

I AM A LITTLE BIT STUBBORN AND I KEPT INSISTING.

I READ MY ENTIRE FILE.

THAT IS WHERE I FOUND, WHERE IS THIS STORY COMING FROM?

EIKENBERRY USE --BARELY USE IT PROPERLY.

I TOLD THE JUDGE THAT YOU SHOULD HAVE MENTIONED THIS IN COURT.

I WOULD HAVE MENTIONED THIS THREE YEARS DIDN'T EXIST.

THEY ARE VERY SLOPPY IN ACCUSATIONS.

MY MAIN ACCUSATION, MOST OF THE PEOPLE THEY TAKE AS A HOSTAGE , THEY ACCUSED UNDER SECTION 508 OF COOPERATING WITH A HOSTILE STATE, REFERRING TO THE UNITED STATES.

IT IS VERY VAGUE.

THINGS LIKE ATTENDING A TED X TALK IN TEHRAN.

THEY TOOK THAT FROM MY CELL PHONE.

WE ARE NOT ATTENDING A TED X TALK FULLY LEGAL AND LICENSED IN IRAN.

I WASN'T A SPEAKER AND WASN'T AN ORGANIZER.

IT APPARENTLY WAS ILLEGAL ONLY FOR ME.

I COULD ARGUABLY PUT THE TED TALKS ON TV.

THEY CLAIM THE INTENTION IS TO SUBVERT THE REGIME.

THEY WOULD SAY IN MY CASE, MY RULING SAID WHEN THEY TOOK ME FOR 30 YEARS, I HAD BEEN BUILDING CLANDESTINE INFRASTRUCTURE TO INFILTRATE AND TOPPLE THIS DATE.

I SAID YOU TOOK ME WHEN I WAS 44, HOW DOES IT WORK?

INCLUDING THE EIGHT YEARS I SPENT IN PRISON, I HAVEN'T LIVED IN IRAN FOR 30 YEARS.

THEY ARE REALLY OUTRAGEOUS CHARGES AND I THINK PEOPLE SHOULD KNOW THIS.

THINGS LIKE SPEAKING AT GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY AND COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY.

NOT WHAT I WAS SPEAKING ABOUT , I WAS SPEAKING ABOUT THE SHORTAGE OF GAS.

>> LET ME ASK, I WANT TO ASK NOW, WHY YOU GUYS HAVE DECIDED TO SPEAK OUT NOW.

ONE OF THE BIG ISSUES ON THE INTERNATIONAL AGENDA IS TRYING TO GET ANOTHER NUCLEAR DEAL BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND IRAN.

AS I SAID, THESE TALKS ARE CONTINUING.

WHAT IS IT THAT YOU WANT TO SAY TO TRAVELERS TO IRAN ABOUT PEOPLE THAT MIGHT THINK IT IS OKAY TO GO THERE?

>> JUST TO CONTINUE, WHEN THEY LEVEL CHARGES THAT YOU IN MY CASE, IT WAS REGARDING OUR FOUNDATION WHICH WAS A CONSERVATION FOUNDATION THAT I FOUNDED 10 YEARS BEFORE BEING ARRESTED.

IT HAD BECOME THE LARGEST IN THE COUNTRY.

EVERY SINGLE PROJECT WAS TOGETHER WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENT .

HALF THE PROJECTS WERE WITH THE UNITED NATIONS PROGRAM.

EVERY PERMIT FOR EVERY PROJECT THE FOUNDATION WAS ENGAGED IN WAS APPROVED BY THE MINISTER OF INTELLIGENCE.

WHAT MORE CAN YOU ASK FOR?

AT ONE JUNCTURE, THEY MUST HAVE CONSIDERED THAT OUR NGO WAS A POTENTIAL DANGER.

THIS WAS REALLY A PUBLIC SERVICE IF NOTHING ELSE FOR THE COUNTRY AND THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE IN IRAN TO PRESERVE AND CONSERVE WHAT THEY HAVE IN WILDLIFE AND NATURAL RESOURCES.

TO THAT EXTENT, WHEN YOU HAVE DONE SOMETHING WHICH IS GOOD FOR THE COUNTRY AND STILL BE FRAMED AS A SPY, IS REALLY OVER THE TOP.

IT REALLY DOESN'T TAKE MUCH FOR THEM TO FABRICATE SOMETHING .

THEY WILL CREATE THE NARRATIVE AND MAKE FILMS OF YOU, THEY WILL TRANSPOSE YOUR SPEECH AND FORGE YOUR SIGNATURE AND ALL KINDS OF THINGS.

ANYTHING TO FIT THE NARRATIVE THAT THEY WANT TO PUT OUT THERE.

ANYONE GOING THERE THINKING WE HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING, WHY SHOULD ANYONE BOTHER US, THAT IS BEING VERY NAÏVE.

>> I WANT TO ASK, WHY DO YOU FEEL YOU HAVE A HEIGHTENED NEED TO SPEAK OUT NOW.

I UNDERSTAND THERE ARE SEVERAL IRANIAN AMERICANS AND OTHER NATIONALS WHO ARE UNDER SOME FORM OF DURESS.

WE, FOR PRIVACY AND OTHER LEGAL REASONS ARE NOT NAMING ANY NAMES OR SPECIFICS.

THERE IS THREAT TO SEVERAL OUT THERE.

WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THAT .

I UNDERSTAND ALSO, AS A GROUP , YOU ASKED THE STATE DEPARTMENT TO ISSUE A HEIGHTENED ADVISORY.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT?

>> CORRECT.

WHAT HAPPENS, EVERY TIME THERE ARE TALKS SCHEDULED BETWEEN IRAN AND THE UNITED STATES , IT IS OPEN SEASON.

THERE ARE ELEMENTS THAT DO NOT WANT THE TALKS TO PROGRESS AT ANY LEVEL.

THEY WILL THROW A WRENCH INTO THE WORK.

THAN THERE ARE ELEMENTS THAT DON'T MIND A FEW EXTRA BARGAINING CHIPS.

WE ARE ENTERING A NEW PHASE OF DISCUSSION.

THE THREE OF US FEAR THAT THIS WILL CAUSE THESE ELEMENTS WITHIN THE REGIME TO GO OUT LOOKING TO FILL UP THEIR SELF .

WE HAVE ACTUALLY TALKED WITH OUR FRIENDS AT THE STATE DEPARTMENT AND ASKED THEM TO MAKE IT AS PUBLIC AS POSSIBLE.

THIS IS NOT THE RIGHT TIME FOR ANY AMERICAN TO GET UP AND GO TO IRAN.

UNFORTUNATELY, I SEE YOUTUBE VIDEOS OF ADVENTURERS WHO GO TO IRAN AND HAVE BEAUTIFUL SHOWS AND ENCOURAGING OTHER AMERICANS TO GO TO IRAN.

IF YOU WANT A HEAD RUSH, GO BUNGEE JUMPING.

DON'T PUT YOURSELF AND YOUR FAMILY THROUGH THIS NIGHTMARE.

>> DID THE STATE DEPARTMENT AGREE, IS THERE A HEIGHTENED ADVISORY?

>> THEY LISTEN TO ME AND I AM SURE THEY LISTEN TO --.

I HAVEN'T SEEN ANYTHING COME OUT YET.

>> I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU HAVE THEY HAVE OR NOT BUT FURTHERMORE, DESCRIBE A BIT HOW THE GOVERNMENT DOES OR DOESN'T HELP YOU.

YOU TOLD US THAT YOU HAD BEEN LEFT BEHIND BY SEVERAL ADMINISTRATIONS OVER SEVERAL OPPORTUNITIES .

THIS HOSTAGETAKING HAS BEEN GOING ON THROUGH MANY ADMINISTRATIONS.

JUST BOIL IT DOWN.

HOW DOES THE GOVERNMENT DEAL WITH CITIZENS WHO ARE HELD HOSTAGE AND WRONGFULLY DETAINED INSIDE IRAN.

>> THE U. S. GOVERNMENT IS KEEN TO GET PEOPLE OUT BUT MAKING POLITICAL DEALS TO RESCUE HOSTAGES INVOLVES THE PRICE THAT IS VERY DIFFICULT FOR A PRESIDENT.

THE GOOD NEWS, RIGHT NOW, WE DO HAVE A PRESIDENT WHO CARES ABOUT GETTING AMERICANS HOME.

WE CAN HAVE A LOT OF CRITICISM ABOUT DIFFERENT POLICIES.

THERE HAS BEEN A GOOD TRACK RECORD.

WHAT I AM ASKING, BESIDES THE HEIGHTENED TRAVEL WARNING THING IT IS ALWAYS A BAD TIME TO GO TO IRAN BUT WE KNOW THE PATTERNS.

THIS IS A PARTICULARLY BAD TIME.

I WANT THAT OUT THERE.

I ALSO THINK THAT WHAT WE NEED TO DO, BECAUSE THE U. S. IS NEGOTIATING IS TO MAKE CLEAR, FOR FUTURE NEGOTIATIONS OR THE CONTINUATION , WILL BE PENDING THE RELEASE OF THE AMERICANS THAT ARE THERE TODAY AND THERE WILL BE A VERY HEAVY PRICE TO PAY, IF WE REPEAT THE PATTERN THAT WE HAVE SEEN OVER AND OVER THAT DURING NEGOTIATIONS IN RIGHT AFTER, THEY WILL TAKE MORE AMERICANS.

I WANT TO MAKE THIS POINT, DO NOT THINK THAT INKING A DEAL WILL MAKE YOU SAFE.

THAT IS A MISTAKE I MADE.

I WENT RIGHT AFTER.

THE INK DID NOT PROTECT ME AGAINST THE HANDCUFFS OF THE REVOLUTIONARY GUARDS.

WHAT WE NEED IS FOR THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT TO MAKE IT VERY CLEAR, THEY WILL NOT TOLERATE THE REPETITION OF A PATTERN THAT WE ARE PRETTY CERTAIN WILL HAPPEN AND THEY WILL BE VERY STRICT CONSEQUENCES THAT WOULD DETER FUTURE HOSTAGETAKING.

>> PEOPLE ARE BREAKING THE HOSTAGETAKING BUSINESS MODEL.

>> IT IS A PROFITABLE BUSINESS.

>> IN THE LAST FEW SECONDS, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY, GIVEN YOUR EXPERIENCE TO THOSE WHO ARE BEING DETAINED NOW IN A SIMILAR WAY TO WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU ?

>> I FOUND A PARTICULAR WAY TO MANAGE MY MIND THROUGH THE PERIOD THAT I WAS HELD HOSTAGE.

MY SAVIOR IN LARGE PART WAS DOING ART.

I FOCUSED ON THINGS THAT I CONSIDER BEAUTIFUL .

MY SUBJECTS WERE ALL ANIMALS AND WILDLIFE AND NATURE.

IT IS TO TRY AND DIVERT MY MIND AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE TO THINGS THAT ARE PEACEFUL AND WILL KEEP YOUR MIND AWAY FROM DARK THINGS GOING ON.

I THINK IT IS VERY CRITICAL FOR ANYONE THAT FINDS THEMSELVES IN A SITUATION LIKE THAT TO BE ABLE TO MANAGE THEIR OWN SANITY IN SOME FASHION.

NOT JUST FOR THE TIME THEY ARE IN PRISON BUT ALSO FOR THE TIME WHEN THEY COME OUT.

YOU HAVE TO COME OUT INTO THE REAL WORLD.

>> WE COULD GO ON AND ON BUT WE HAVE RUN OUT OF TIME.

THINK ALL THREE OF YOU VERY MUCH.

GOOD LUCK TO YOU AS YOU CONTINUE TO NAVIGATE YOUR FREEDOM .

TO KNOW, WE ASKED THE GOVERNMENT FOR RESPONSE AND THEY GOT BACK TO US WITH NO COMMENT.

> >> DESPITE WORRYING ECONOMIC RESULTS, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS BEEN TAKING A VICTORY LAP TO MARK THE FIRST 100 DAYS OF THE SECOND TERM, GOING SO FAR AS TO SAY HIS SUCCESS SURPASSES ANY IN U. S. HISTORY.

>> WE ARE HERE TONIGHT IN THE HEARTLAND OF THE NATION TO CELEBRATE THE MOST SUCCESSFUL FIRST 100 DAYS OF ANY ADMINISTRATION IN THE HISTORY OF OUR COUNTRY, THAT IS ACCORDING TO MANY MANY PEOPLE.

>> PERHAPS NOT ACCORDING TO OUR NEXT GUEST, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN TIMMY --WHO PUTS THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY IN FULL CONTEXT .

>> WELCOME BACK.

>> PLEASURE TO BE WITH YOU.

>> WE ARE AT THE 100 DAY MARK OF THE SECOND TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

WHAT IS YOUR TAKE SO FAR?

>> I THINK WE SHOULD ASSESS THE TRUMP 100 DAYS IN LIGHT OF THE GOLD STANDARD .

THAT WHOLE TERM COMES FROM THE FIRST TERM OF FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT.

FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT MAINE THEME WAS TO BANISH FEAR FROM AMERICAN SPACE.

HE WANTED TO RESTORE THE PEOPLE'S CONFIDENCE IN AMERICAN INSTITUTIONS.

BANKS, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

HE WANTED AMERICANS TO FEEL THAT THEY HAD SOME PREDICTIVE CAPACITY OVER THE FUTURE .

AND BY THOSE STANDARDS, I THINK DONALD TRUMP HAS DONE THE OPPOSITE.

DONALD TRUMP TRIED TO INTRODUCE FEAR INTO THE AMERICAN SPACE.

FEAR AMONG AMERICAN UNIVERSITIES AND AMONG LAW FIRMS AND INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS AND RECENT IMMIGRANTS.

FEAR AMONG MEMBERS OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY ON THE HILL.

IN THAT SENSE, THE 100 DAYS THAT WE WITNESSED WHICH HAVE BEEN AS ACTIVE AND REVOLUTIONARY AS FDR 'S 100 DAYS, THEY HAVE HAD THE EXACT OPPOSITE OBJECTIVE.

THAT IS WHY IT WILL BE SAFE TO SAY THAT LIBERAL AND CONSERVATIVE HISTORIANS WILL LOOK UPON THESE HUNDRED DAYS OF DESTRUCTIVE.

>> ONE OF THE BIG DIFFERENCES IS FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT DID MOST OF HIS WORK BY PASSING LAWS THROUGH CONGRESS.

THERE WERE 12 PIECES OF LEGISLATION.

TRUMP HAS NOT FOLLOWED THAT.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

>> FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT, EVEN THOUGH IT WAS A 100 DAY PERIOD LED BY CONGRESS, MANY PEOPLE ASSOCIATED THIS ACTIVITY WITH RANK AND ROOSEVELT.

ROOSEVELT, AND HIS THIRD FIRESIDE CHAT , AFTER THE 100 DAYS, MADE CLEAR TO EVERYONE THAT WHAT HE WAS DOING WAS IN THE AMERICAN TRADITION AND HE WAS SIMPLY IMPLEMENTING LAWS PASSED BY CONGRESS.

HE TOO UNDERSTOOD THAT THE AMERICAN TRADITION WAS TO NOT HAVE A DICTATOR.

FAST-FORWARD TO THE CURRENT TIME, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SOUGHT TO ACT AS IF HE WERE THE ONLY BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT.

WE DO NOT LIVE IN A DICTATORSHIP BUT HE ACTED IN THE STYLE OF A DICTATOR.

>> LET ME STOP YOU THERE.

WHOSE FAULT IS THAT?

>> TWO THINGS , HE HAS GONE ABOUT HIS BUSINESS ACTING RHETORICALLY AND PHYSICALLY AS IF THERE IS NO OTHER BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT.

INDEED, WHEN BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT STOOD UP TO HIM, HE HAS BEEN VICIOUS AND ANNOUNCING THEM.

WE JUST SAW A PERP WALK OF AN AMERICAN JUDGE.

WHEN THE OTHER BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT HAVE SOUGHT TO OPPOSE HIM, HE HAS NOT ACTED IN THE SPIRIT OF FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT, BY SPEAKING OF THE NATIONAL GOVERNMENT.

HE TALKED ABOUT THE PRESIDENCY AS THE SEAT OF ALL POWER.

WHOSE FAULT IS IT?

THAT THERE IS A PERMISSIVE ENVIRONMENT, OF COURSE IT IS THE FAULT OF ELECTED REPUBLICANS WHO HAVE BEEN FEARFUL OF OPPOSING THE PRESIDENT.

THAT IS WHY I AM TALKING ABOUT THE INSTALLATION OF FEAR, NOT SIMPLY IN PRIVATE INSTITUTIONS BUT IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY ITSELF.

>> SHE SAID WE ARE ALL AFRAID.

WE ARE AT A TIME AND A PLACE AND HAVE NOT BEEN HERE BEFORE.

I AM OFTEN TIMES ANXIOUS ABOUT USING MY VOICE.

RETALIATION IS REAL.

>> IT CHILLS ME.

IT IS A CHILLING STATEMENT .

BY THE SENATOR.

IT ECHOES SOMETHING THAT MITT ROMNEY I THINK WROTE IN HIS DIARY.

HE HAD HIRED SECURITY FOR HIS FAMILY.

HE WROTE DURING THE FIRST IMPEACHMENT , HE UNDERSTOOD WHY THERE WERE SO MANY COLLEAGUES THAT KNEW THEY SHOULD BE VOTING FOR IMPEACHMENT BUT WERE AFRAID TO BECAUSE THEY WERE AFRAID OF THE EFFECT ON THEIR FAMILIES.

THE PHYSICAL EFFECT.

HE SAID THEY CAN'T AFFORD 24/7 SECURITY LIKE I CAN.

THAT ECHOED THE FEAR THAT EXISTED BACK IN THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

WE SAW THAT ALSO IN THE WAY IN WHICH THE SENATE DEALT WITH THE CONFIRMATIONS OF THE NEW CABINET.

THERE WERE A NUMBER OF SENATORS WHO FOUND A WAY TO LEAK THE FACT THAT WE ARE NOT HAPPY WITH SOME OF THE CHOICES.

FOR EXAMPLE, SECRETARY HEGSETH AT THE PENTAGON OR RFK JUNIOR AT HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES.

IN THE END THEY WERE SO FEARFUL OF A PRIMARY CHALLENGE AND FEARFUL OF THEIR OWN SUPPORTERS THAT THEY FELL INTO LINE.

>> THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BEING FEARFUL OF A PRIMARY CHALLENGE OR BEING FEARFUL OF PHYSICAL HARM AND YOU HAVE TO HIRE A BODYGUARD.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS IS?

>> WALTER, LET'S MAKE CLEAR, THE FIRST BRANDING OF THIS NEW TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, IN MY VIEW, WAS THE PARDONING OF THE JANUARY SIXTH FELONS.

WHEN YOU PARDON VIOLENT FELONS, YOU ARE SENDING A SIGNAL ABOUT LAW AND ORDER.

UNLIKE PRESIDENT JOHNSON , WHEN HE ISSUED A BLANKET PARDON TO THE LEADERS OF THE REBELLION , IN 1868, HE DID NOT DENY THAT THEY COMMITTED A CRIME.

HIS PARDON TALKS ABOUT THOSE THAT LEAD REBELLION AGAINST THE LAWFULLY AUTHORIZED GOVERNMENT.

WHEN DONALD TRUMP ISSUED HIS PARDON, HE ISSUED IT AFTER HE SAID AFTER FOUR YEARS OF INJUSTICE, MAKING THE POINT THAT THE INSURRECTION WAS JUST.

WHEN YOU SET THAT KIND OF TONE , YOU ARE INVITING VIGILANTE IS HIM.

I AM NOT SAYING THAT DONALD TRUMP WANTS IT.

I AM TALKING ABOUT A SPIRIT .

THERE ARE MANY AMERICANS THAT MIGHT BE TROUBLED OR MIGHT SEE THE WAY IN WHICH THE PRESIDENT IS SPEAKING OF JANUARY SIXTH -- JANUARY 6 AS LICENSE THOSE THAT OPPOSE DONALD TRUMP.

>> ONE OF THE COMPARISONS IS ANDREW JACKSON WHO VERY MUCH WITH THE EXPANDING EXECUTIVE PALLET.

IN ONE OF HIS ACTIONS WHICH WAS REMOVAL OF NATIVE AMERICANS , THE INDIAN REMOVAL, TO ALMOST IN SOME WAYS ECHOES THE REMOVAL OF UNAUTHORIZED IMMIGRANTS THAT TRUMP IS TRYING TO DO .

WHEN THE SUPREME COURT SAID DON'T DO THAT TO JACKSON JUST LIKE THEY HAVE TO TRUMP, THE TALE IS THAT JACKSON INTIMATED CHIEF JUSTICE MARSHALL , LET US SEE HIM ENFORCE IT.

DO YOU WORRY THAT TRUMP MAY JUST DEFY THE SUPREME COURT?

>> I DON'T KNOW WHAT DONALD TRUMP WILL DO WHEN PUSH COMES TO SHOVE.

I ANTICIPATE HE WILL LOSE A SERIES OF VERY IMPORTANT CASES.

I SUSPECT, I AM NOT A LAWYER AND I DON'T PLAY ONE ON TELEVISION THAT I DO KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT FEDERAL ASSISTANCE TO UNIVERSITIES.

DONALD TRUMP'S DOJ WILL LOSE THE CASE.

I SUSPECT HE IS GOING TO LOSE THE CASE REGARDING BIRTHRIGHT CITIZENSHIP AND I ASSUME HE WILL LOSE SOME OF THE IMMIGRATION CASES.

HE HAS ALREADY STARTED TO.

I THINK THERE WILL BE AN ENORMOUS PRESSURE FROM THE MAGA WING TO DEFY THE COURTS.

I CANNOT PREDICT WHAT DONALD TRUMP WILL DO.

I HOPE THAT HE WILL CONCLUDE THAT HE CAN'T DEFY THE COURTS BUT I CAN'T PREDICT THAT BECAUSE THIS DONALD TRUMP IS AN UNLEASHED AND UNPLUGGED DONALD TRUMP FROM THE PERSON THAT WE SAW IN THE FIRST TERM.

THE FIRST TERM DONALD TRUMP, ACCEPTED HAVING PEOPLE AROUND HIM WHO COULD DISSUADE HIM FROM IMPULSES.

IN THE SECOND TERM, HE MADE CLEAR IN THE CAMPAIGN, THAT HE WANTED NO GUARD RAILS .

HE WANTED UNFILTERED TRUMP IS HIM .

WHETHER OR NOT THAT MEANS DEFYING THE COURT AND TALKING LIKE JACKSON IS SOMETHING TO BE SEEN.

>> WHAT HAPPENS IF HE DOES DEFY A COURT ORDER?

WHO COULD STEP IN?

WE KNOW THE FBI IS UNDER HIS CONTROL AND TO SOME EXTENT THE MILITARY AND THE U. S. ATTORNEY .

WHO COULD STEP IN?

>> UNDER MY UNDERSTANDING OF CONSTITUTIONAL TRADITION , THERE ISN'T ANYONE THAT CAN STEP IN.

WE HAVE THREE EQUAL BRANCHES.

THE SUPREME COURT HAS A MARSHALS SERVICE TO PROTECT THE LIVES AND THE MEMBERS OF THE SUPREME COURT.

THANK GOODNESS IN THIS DANGEROUS MOMENT.

IT IS IMPORTANT TO HAVE A SUPREME COURT THAT DOESN'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT SECURITY.

THE SUPREME COURT DOESN'T HAVE AN ARMY .

ONE SIGN OF HOPE , IN OUR COUNTRY, WHEN YOU TAKE THE OATH OF OFFICE, YOU TAKE IT TO THE CONSTITUTION.

EVEN THOUGH DONALD TRUMP DOESN'T ACCEPT THE NORM THAT -- MIGHT NOT.

THAT THE PRESIDENT MUST DEFER TO THE SUPREME COURT ON MATTERS OF THE CONSTITUTION.

IT'S THAT THEY WOULD ACCEPT THE INTERPRETATION.

AND THAT WOULD HAVE TO INTERVENE.

THAT PUTS US IN A CATEGORY OF NATIONS.

KEEP IN MIND, LEADERS OF THE MILITARY DO NOT GIVE AN OATH TO THE PRESIDENT.

>> TO WORRY ABOUT THE WAY HE CHANGE THE JOINTS CHIEF OF STAFF AND THE WAY HE PUT AN UNCONVENTIONAL.

AS SECRETARY OF DEFENSE ALL LOYALIST TO HIM?

>> YES I WORRY.

I WORRY DEEPLY.

ONE OF THE LESSONS OF STUDYING THE PERIODS IN HISTORY WHEN WE HAVE HAD QUANTIFY AUTHORITARIANS AND POWER IS THE SYSTEM CAN CORRECT ITSELF.

USUALLY IT WRITES ITSELF BECAUSE MEMBERS OF I DON'T WANT TO USE THE TERM ELITE AMONG THOSE WITH POWER AND INFLUENCE, COME TO A BIPARTISAN UNDERSTANDING THAT THE AUTHORITARIAN ACTION THREATENS THE FABRIC OF WHO WE ARE AND OF OUR SOCIETY.

IN 1974, YOU HAVE ELECTED REPUBLICANS COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT NIXON HAD TO GO.

IN THE 50s YOU HAD REPUBLICANS THAT CAME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT JOE McCARTHY'S REIGN OF TERROR HAD TO AND.

THAT IS HOW THE SYSTEM WORKED.

THE OPPONENTS SUCCEED.

>> ARE YOU SEEING SIGNS THAT THAT COULD HAPPEN?

>> NOT YET.

>> I SAW GLIMMERS OF THIS WHEN A FEW SENATORS DECIDED TO SEND A NOTE OF DISAPPROVAL REGARDING TARIFFS ON CANADA.

THEY UNDERSTOOD THAT THEY LACKED THE POWER TO CHANGE THE APPROACH TOWARD CANADA.

THEY DID SEND A SIGNAL.

WHAT I AM SEEING OUR THE BEGINNINGS OF A RETRENCHMENT.

IT INDICATES TO ME THAT THE PRESIDENT AND TEAM THINK THEY MIGHT BE LOSING POPULAR SUPPORT.

WE ARE SEEING THE PRESIDENT PULL BACK A BIT ON INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS.

IT IS NOT QUITE CLEAR WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO THE TARIFFS THAT HAVE BEEN UNIVERSALLY DENOUNCED FOR BEING STUPID .

BESIDES BEING HIGH, THEY DON'T HAVE ANY LOGIC ATTACHED.

THE PUBLIC ISN'T BUYING THEM.

THE PRESIDENT'S APPROVAL RATINGS ARE LOWER THAN THEY HAVE BEEN.

I BELIEVE LOWER THAN THE FIRST TERM.

THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF IS RETRENCHING A LITTLE.

I SEE A LITTLE BIT OF PUSHBACK ON THE HILL AND MORE PUSHBACK ON THE PART OF UNIVERSITIES AND SOME LAW FIRMS.

WE ARE BEGINNING TO SEE A REAWAKENING OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL ORDER.

LET'S BE CLEAR , FOR THE FIRST TWO THIRDS , IT APPEARED THE CONSTITUTIONAL SYSTEM WAS ASLEEP AND THE PRESIDENT WAS ACTING WITHOUT ANY PUSHBACK.

THE SITUATION HAS CHANGED AND I THINK WILL CONTINUE TO CHANGE.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAVE DRIVEN POPULARITY IS HE TAPPED INTO RESENTMENT AGAINST THE ELITE THAT YOU MENTIONED MIGHT BE THERE TO SAVE US.

I THINK AT ONE POINT HE SAID, I AM YOUR WARRIOR AND I AM YOUR JUSTICE.

FOR THOSE THAT HAVE BEEN WRONGED AND BETRAYED , I AM YOUR RETRIBUTION.

HE EVEN PUSHED THAT AGAINST PEOPLE .

DO YOU THINK THE SPIRIT OF RETRIBUTION IS SOMETHING HE ACTUALLY TAPPED INTO AND HOW DANGEROUS IS THAT?

>> THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT HE TAPPED INTO A POPULAR DESIRE FOR CHANGE AND IN SOME CASES FOR RETRIBUTION.

I THINK THE DISQUIET IN THE COUNTRY GOES BACK TO THE GREAT RECESSION AND THE RECOVERY THAT REGIONS OF THIS COUNTRY EXPERIENCE.

I DON'T DOUBT THAT THE PANDEMIC SHARPENED UNHAPPINESS IN DIVISION IN THE COUNTRY.

15 OR 20 YEARS FROM NOW, WE ARE GOING TO HAVE PANDEMIC STUDIES BECAUSE I DON'T THINK WE FULLY ABSORBED OR PROCESSED THE EFFECT , POLITICAL, CULTURAL AND SOCIAL ON THE COUNTRY, LET ALONE THE WORLD.

THEIR LOVE WAS A LOT OF DISQUIET AND ANGER.

>> IF YOU LOOK AT NIXON'S CAMPAIGN, HE RAN ON RESENTMENTS TO THE ELITE AND SO DID ANDREW JACKSON.

>> HE RAN ON RESENTMENTS.

WHAT HE DIDN'T PROMISE WAS RETRIBUTION.

THAT IS THE KEY DIFFERENCE.

HE WANTED RETRIBUTION AND HE TRIED TO USE THE GOVERNMENT TO ACHIEVE IT.

GOOD GOVERNMENT REPUBLICANS PUSHED BACK.

THE ENEMIES LIST WAS INITIALLY HIS IDEA AND HE WAS NEVER ABLE TO IMPLEMENT.

MY POINT IS, AMERICAN LEADERS TAPPED INTO RESENTMENT, WHETHER IT WAS IN THE SOUTH FOR THE CIVIL RIGHTS REVOLUTION , YES.

WHAT DONALD TRUMP DID THAT IS SO DIFFERENT, HE MADE RETRIBUTION HIS GOVERNING PHILOSOPHY.

HE TOLD EVERYONE HE WOULD.

THE QUESTION I HAVE FOR FELLOW AMERICANS, IS THAT WHO WE ARE?

IS THAT HOW WE WANT TO BE GOVERNED?

I AM NOT CONVINCED THAT THERE IS A SUSTAINABLE BROAD GOVERNING COALITION BEHIND THE GOVERNMENT OF RETRIBUTION.

MAYBE I'M AN OPTIMIST.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR ASKING ME ON.

>> THANK YOU WALTER.

>> THAT IS THE GREAT STORY OF THE TIME AND WE WILL CONTINUE TO FOLLOW IT.

FINALLY, A HUGE PARADE MARKED 50 YEARS SINCE THE END OF THE VIETNAM WAR.

THE GRUELING CONFLICT BETWEEN THE VIETCONG IN THE UNITED STATES MILITARY THAT ENDED WITH THE FALL OF SAIGON.

SOME 3 MILLION VIETNAMESE PEOPLE AND ALMOST 60,000 AMERICANS WERE KILLED AND MANY STILL LIVED WITH THE TOXIC FALLOUT OF AGENT ORANGE THAT LEFT PEOPLE DISABLED OR WITH CHRONIC HEALTH ISSUES.

THE U. S. DROPPED MORE BOMBS ON VIETNAM IN GERMANY AND JAPAN COMBINED YET 50 YEARS LATER, VIETNAM EMERGED AS AN ECONOMIC POWERHOUSE IN SOUTHEAST ASIA WITH FULL-FLEDGED DIPLOMATIC TIES WITH THE UNITED STATES.

IT IS REMARKABLE HOW FAR THESE ENEMIES HAVE COME .

ALTHOUGH VIETNAM HAS ALSO BEEN SLAPPED WITH TARIFFS.

46%.

TRACT THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.